Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-12-17 at 02:01 PM.
I honestly don't feel they need a buff at the moment. But who knows with new gear rogues just may end up the top class again anyways. They scale pretty well with gear.
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." -Alexander Tytler
Rather, it sounds more like the name of a skill they'd give warriors than rogues.
Though in all seriousness, yeah KS is a godawful ability that is probably the single most self destructive skill in raids, and to top it all off it's a crucial dps cooldown. Now if it were something more along the lines of an Aura that duplicated your skills used randomly on other (or the same) nearby targets and you had control over your character I'd feel safer using it, but then it would just be boring, like deathknight boring. If it made you untargettable for the duration it would be safer in pvp but then people would scream OP. It's just not a very happy skill no matter how you look at it.
Back to the original topic, I think rogues need work, but I might just be jaded having played one for 6 years. It just doesn't feel shiny and new like playing a healer does each new expac.
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.
rogue problems is we always suck at the beginning of the expansion because we are one of the biggest gear dependant classes there is. We start of weak, get buffed to improve our numbers then as gear stacks and we become OP again we get nerfed to buggery ready for the next expansion.
The reasons you dont see many rogues in the top teams is simply because people are sick of the ramp up. They dont want to play a class that will be competetive in a couple of tiers worth of gear. They want a class that can hold its own NOW and will improve more over time.
As for GC's claims that we get the most updates in 5.2 ill beleive it when i see it. Every single update for as long as i can recall there has been little to no changes made to rogues.
Personally id say the biggest buff for me as a rogue both in pve and pvp would be to make combo points stack on the rogue and not its target (like palas and monks and dk's).
Have you ever stepped on a lego piece while barefoot?
Can you recall that exquisitely piercing and utterly unforgettable pedal agony? Now imagine what would happen if you were to step on between 10 and 25 angry, well armed lego pieces which are all acting in brutal concert, and tell me how that would go for you.
Plus they have magic and sharp objects.
I posted the following image somewhere a long time ago as well.
That is the Shadow Dance card from the WoW TCG game. Why in Varian's name don't we have something like that already? Basically what Tsuna said, simply a shadow that copies attacks over to a nearby target, possibly at reduced damage to avoid cries on non-Rogue forums. It seems like a very logical thing to give Rogues. Hell make it a talent, a choice between this on a cooldown for massive cleave damage or Blade Flurry for permanent but lower cleave damage. Might as well include a cleaving poison on the 3rd talent option. There, interesting talents and the whole cleave dilemma solved (after balancing of course).
I know this will be unpopular, but I really hope they give us a 4th spec and make it a dodge tank. Yes, yes, yes. I know. Rogues shouldn't be tanks. But if you think about it, combat has always been more of a 'stand your ground and hack and slash' spec, so it's not that far fetched to say that Rogues with a nimble tank spec would work for canon.
If they clean up our talent tree I can easily see some of the talents there lending themselves to that type of spec anyways - Combat Readiness is a perfect tank CD as it is. Adding another which is a energy based +25% dodge increase (or maybe +5% dodge per CP) would also fit nicely.
Ive been a Rogue since vanilla. Combat spec has been nearly identical since its inception. They added Revealing strikes and KS, but otherwise it remains virtually unchanged. It'd be really great to get something completely fresh - and having another tank spec in the mix out there benefits everyone equally. We already have a mini-offtank ability with a Druids Symbiosis. Let's take that extra step and just give us a spec based on that.
Of course, this probably won't happen (and most people will hate it I imagine).. I'll gladly accept whatever changes they give us that adds some flavor to the existing setups we have. It's been a long time since I've felt Rogues have been new. I still love the class and still main mine, but something really new would be welcomed.
Rogues need more than just an overall buff. I don't do high end raiding, aside from LFR...so I definitely don't have the numbers or experience with how Rogues perform in this area. .
My beef with Rogue is not the PvE side, in fact in my situation I am quite happy with PvE performance. PvP is where I royally get shat on...most of the time. Unfortunately I like to PvP a lot...but I've had to resort to playing a different class to be successful (as many of us probably have).
I do think Rogues will be tweaked, maybe not necessarily buffed though. ShS baseline is a step in the right direction, as Prep is pretty much a necessity for us. Vanish is needs to be fixed. I really feel my burst is lacking as well, compared to the Mage I also play. Mages are "class canons" I get that, but Rogues are as well. Since I die so fast, I feel that I should be able to put out a ton of pressure to compensate for that...but i don't -_-
Scaling is irrelevant, and is the worst way to improve a class, as warriors can attest.
Shitty at the low end- OP at the top end.
Then you have to nerf them when they get too OP, and then it just makes lower geared rogues even more pathetic.
It's no excuse, blizzard needs to address these imbalances.
---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 09:47 AM ----------
By the way, this "gear dependency" thing is utter crap. Each expac rogues have started badly- and if they get better, it's only because of relatively massive buffs.
Over BC we saw shadowstep turn from a "used only while stealthed" trick into a real gap closer, we gained the extra range and better cost on sap and blind, and the sword spec change ended up being significant (it became yellow), and a lot of junk stopped breaking stealth (like aoes that do no damage). We also had to get the modern version of cheat death (the original one was just a 30% chance to cheat any attack that would kill you, making it essentially useless), as well as our speed boost in assassination. Essentially every patch was a buff except the one meant to nerf a very cooldown rush oriented spec (HARP's second adren rush).
Over LK we got the modern cooldown on dance (used to be two minutes), we finally got up to the modern speed on deadly throw (it was boosted like three times), we got the modern cooldown on AR and the damage boost on spree, and we got talent based damage boosts to sub.
Over Cata we had some damage buffs and we saw some mid season nerfs a couple times to survival (most notably the linking of combat readiness with cloak, and cloak's base duration raising- I predicted at the time this would leave sub as the only viable rogue spec, and was correct). But the damage buffs were still needed even here in order for rogues to do good damage.
It's about Blizzard fixing the class, not about getting gear from three patches down the road.
For me performance is more than just DPS numbers (which are okay)
If I am questing and doing the daily chores, and I see a mob lose 25% health between 2 mutilates, only from autoattacks, I just die a little inside. I do 2-3 special attacks for a total of maybe 40% of a mob’s health, and the rest is done by the Computer.
If I look at the talent tree and see tiers where it doesn’t matter what talent I take, and compare it with my GF, who is a shadow priest, I die a little inside.
If I see my DPS increase with a shit ton, if I get an epic weapon, and know I held back my team before that because I had trouble getting enough sparks down on Elegon due to being energy starved and not getting enough damage in on time, I die a little inside.
If I see me accidentally hitting killing spree on Garalon, and subsequently see a raid member killed because of the Crush that happens because I ended up in the purple circle, I die a little inside.
(Admitted it is somehow a payback of me getting killed several times because other people fuck up, but still)
If I see other classes having major raid cooldowns, and compare it to my Tricks of the trade (because let’s face it, it is the only thing we can actively add to the raid, except for own survivability cooldowns) I die a little inside.
If I see the visuals of other classes (although some of them are over the top, and I wish I could turn them off and see a boss instead of a lit christmas tree) and then look at shadow blades, of which I barely notice it is there, I die a little inside.
Like you said: we don’t need damage buffs, but we need serious tweaking in damage sources, activity,gear dependency, talent trees AND visuals.
Last edited by patcherke; 2012-12-18 at 10:35 AM.
People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.
every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...
Sub and Combat will get a buff. I very much doubt Assassination will.