Page 1 of 7
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Balancing Disc in PvE?

    It's currently OP in PvE, so how do we fix it in PvE without effecting PvP?

    These are my suggestions:

    1 - Rapture no longer benefits from short-term (trinkets, Mana Tide, etc) spirit bonuses
    2 - DA nerfed by to be 20% absorption on all spells, but DA triggers from all spell hits, not just criticals
    3 - Spirit Shell now has a 3 min CD but each time Penance is channeled entirely the CD is reduced by 3 seconds 90
    4 - The Spirit Shell duration now lasts 30 seconds.
    5 - Archangel now restores 5% mana
    6 - Evangelism now includes Power Word: Solace
    7 - Atonement now includes Power Word: Solace
    8 - Prayer of Healing now has a 7% base mana cost (from 13500 mana to 21000)

    Reasons why:

    1) Rapture benefiting from short term spirit buffs is pretty ridiculous. I've seen logs where Disc Priests are getting 120-150k mana returns from 1 Rapture inside a Mana Tide + Relic of Chi-Ji / Spirits of the Sun proc. Both Relic of Chi-Ji and Spirits of the Sun can proc together due to the way their ICDs and durations line up, this basically guarantees a Disc Priest can generate a Rapture proc of 50k~ every 105 seconds which makes the spell far too powerful.

    2) DA at 50% is ridiculous, not just on PoH but all spells. DA at 20% but baseline makes mastery a stronger stat (which is hard to balance because absorption effects are just better than heals). DA at 20% makes all spells 20% "stronger" which is fine because most of Discipline Priest skills are based around being 5-10% weaker, and at the moment Disc is pretty weak at tank healing and in PvP, Disc is even worse off. Passive DA on all spells I think will give Disc Priests more power in PvE. I might be wrong here.

    3) Without the 4 piece tier bonus this would make Spirit Shell's CD (with Penance used on CD every 10 seconds) around 126 seconds. With the 4 piece tier bonus this would make Spirit Shell's CD (with Penance used on CD every 6 seconds) around 90 seconds.

    4) To offset this nerf (mostly to those not using 4 piece tier) Spirit Shell now lasts 30 seconds so that the entire effect is met.

    5) Archangel returning 5% mana now gives Disc a more reliable "healing" throughput CD, especially with my proposed DA change.

    6) Power Word: Solace needs to be buffed to be "as good" as Mindbender. Simple as. Mindbender is the best choice for Disc at the moment.

    7) Quality of life.

    8) 13500 mana for PoH is a joke. Especially with how good Rapture is now.

  2. #2
    So a bunch of minor changes and huge massive increases to PoH mana cost and SS cooldown? That'll dump disc straight back to the gutter that it was in at the start of the expansion. And it won't address the deeper issues of the spec having too many cooldowns and relying on a spell with obsolete targeting mechanics for most of its raid healing.

  3. #3
    Reduce mastery scaling. It's just ridiculous now, scaling better than straight up int.

  4. #4
    Increasing PoH mana cost is the dumbest suggestion i've ever seen, all it will do is gutter holy priests completely without fixing anything for disc priests.

    Here's my own suggestion anyway:

    - Absorbs generated by Prayer of Healing now have 50% efficiency, absorbs from every other spell stays at 100% efficiency.
    - Rapture now has 30 sec cd and no longer benefits from temporary spirit buffs.
    - Divine aegis and spirit shell now cap at 30% of the priest's max health.

  5. #5
    Field Marshal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Fregene - Rome
    Posts
    90
    Quote Originally Posted by Isheria View Post
    Increasing PoH mana cost is the dumbest suggestion i've ever seen, all it will do is gutter holy priests completely without fixing anything for disc priests.

    Here's my own suggestion anyway:

    - Absorbs generated by Prayer of Healing now have 50% efficiency, absorbs from every other spell stays at 100% efficiency.
    - Rapture now has 30 sec cd and no longer benefits from temporary spirit buffs.
    - Divine aegis and spirit shell now cap at 30% of the priest's max health.
    still destroy pvp i think :O

    lowering spirit contribuition to combat regen and rely MORE on rapture and active regen from our talents should increase the skill needed to play this spec properly and should reduce the mindless poh spam that some player do. Not able to manage rapture? go holy.
    Last edited by Janvs; 2012-12-16 at 09:16 AM.

  6. #6
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    2,270
    Quote Originally Posted by Isheria View Post
    - Absorbs generated by Prayer of Healing now have 50% efficiency, absorbs from every other spell stays at 100% efficiency.
    No idea how this would solve anything other than making our only AOE spell pointless.

    - Rapture now has 30 sec cd and no longer benefits from temporary spirit buffs.
    This would destroy new Disc Priets. The problem is less the Rapture amount itself and more the way it scales ridiculously with MTT.

    - Divine aegis and spirit shell now cap at 30% of the priest's max health.
    DA is already at 40% of your health. SS is only 60% of your health. Instead of lowering the total cap, why not simply revert the DA buff back down to 30%?
    Tiriel <Demise> of US-Kel'Thuzad

    Thank you to Yoni for this AMAZING signature!

  7. #7
    i don't follow the archangel change; do you propose removing the 15% healing for 5% mana? solace triggering evangelism/attonement seems like it will be a mess trying to balance... I understand wanting to nerf rapture, but going from 12 seconds to 30 seems a little bit much.. I think we'd just end up at the start of the exansion all over again.

  8. #8
    I don't think Disc is OP. It has the lowest healing output of any spec and is pretty weak at dealing with emergency situations. You reduce raid damage through absorbs and top people off from light damage. It's powerful Disc but not without weaknesses which IMO balances it out.

  9. #9
    Disc still has some weaknesses. I would like to see disc single target healing as strong as it was in cata and some aoe nerfs. It would make the spec better for pvp and fix some problems in pve.

  10. #10
    I haven't done any math about it, these are just my initial thoughts.

    1. Simlair to mana tide, fine (personally I'd rather encourage this timing/not punish certain trinkets and nerf it down to 175% instead, but either would accomplish the same thing, ensuring that disc actually has an interest in spirit past 11-12k).
    2. If discs aoe healing is getting nerfed we do need a buff to our single target (it's atrocious atm), this would remove some rng and fix this, is fine.
    3. Why? If you want to avoid that disc has spirit shell up for every cruical aoe ability on some fights (which wouldn't be as big if it wasn't for the fact that many fights have them on a 1 min cd, might change in the next tier) just change it to 90 seconds, your suggestion is just annoying and makes not having the 4p an even bigger hit.
    4. Pointless, it'll cap out anyways and the long duration will basically ensure that it'll be up for the next aoe damage, just making it a fire and forget button. Pointless and boring, the only interesting part would be to judge when you want to cancel the shell buff, but I'd find that annoying more than anything.
    5. Just don't nerf rapture then? Sure, remove spirit procs from rapture and add 5% mana to archangel, haven't ran the numbers but I doubt that this would be a nerf even for a BiS priest.
    6/7. I'm struggling to see how solace+sf is more interesting than mindbender+smite, you'll press the same buttons and get about the same result (a bit more mana, a bit less dmg/healing I guess). That solace doesn't fit discs design to start with (we're designed around building archangel/evengalism during luls in damage) is another matter.
    8. I suppose this could be fine with the changes to solace+archangel, but it wasn't long ago that discs were having massive mana issues (hence the 200% rapture buff) and this change (without additional mana gain changes, and if so just skip making them as well) would be disastrous.

    Personal suggestions:
    1. Make rapture 175% mana.
    2. Revert DA to 30 (40?)%
    3. Buff GH's output, reduce the mana cost slightly.
    4. Possibly buff defensive penance/flash heal (would also help pvp).
    5. Possibly increase SS cd to 90 seconds (wouldn't be required if blizz didn't design 50% of all fights around damage coming out every ~1 min).

    Nerfs our mana & healing in aoe scenarios slightly, buffs it for tank healing.

    These are really simple changes, something I would like to see (if blizz can make it happen without screwing up the numbers) would be changing PoH from group targetting and balance it accordingly but that'd probably just put us in the gutter for five patches as blizz try to sort out the numbers.

    Regarding pvp, discs most glaring issues are lack of decent cc+survival (and arguably lack of healing/dmg output), both of these could obviously be fixed easily without affecting pve, buffing the damage of sw/sw:d would increase the damage output without affecting pve and reducing flash heals mana cost wouldn't be a bad change for pve either (at least if GH was buffed as well).

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ultimar235 View Post
    I don't think Disc is OP. It has the lowest healing output of any spec and is pretty weak at dealing with emergency situations. You reduce raid damage through absorbs and top people off from light damage. It's powerful Disc but not without weaknesses which IMO balances it out.
    Disc has the best raid CDs and best mana efficiency of any healer at the moment. It certainly does not have the lowest output of any healer when you factor in PoH. PoH alone can generate beastly numbers.

    Archangel would keep the 15% healing by the way.

  12. #12
    All that's needed really is a longer cooldown on SS to make people not feel so bad looking at recount.

  13. #13
    I haven't done any math regarding your suggestion, these are simply my thoughts upon viewing them.

    1. Similar to mana tide, fine (personally I'd rather encourage this timing/not punish certain trinkets and nerf it down to 175% instead, but either would work and accomplish pmuch the same thing, making disc care about spirit past the 11-12k mark).
    2. If discs aoe healing is getting nerfed we do need a buff to our single target (it's atrocious atm), this would remove some rng and fix this, is fine.
    3. Why? If you want to avoid that disc has spirit shell up for every cruical aoe ability on some fights (which wouldn't be as big if it wasn't for the fact that many fights have them on a 1 min cd, might change in the next tier) just change it to 90 seconds, your suggestion is just annoying and makes not having the 4p an even bigger hit.
    4. Pointless and boring, it'll cap out anyways and the long duration will basically ensure that it'll be up for the next aoe damage, just making it a fire and forget button. The only interesting part would be to judge when you want to cancel the shell buff, but I'd find that annoying more than anything.
    5. Just don't nerf rapture then? Sure, remove spirit procs from rapture and add 5% mana to archangel, haven't ran the numbers but I doubt that this would be a nerf even for a BiS priest.
    6/7. I'm struggling to see how solace+sf is more interesting than mindbender+smite, you'll press the same buttons and get about the same result (a bit more mana, a bit less healing/damage I guess). That solace doesn't fit discs design to start with (we already have something to do during luls in damage, building evangelism/archangel) is another matter.
    8. I suppose this could be fine with the changes to solace+archangel, but it wasn't long ago that discs were having massive mana issues (hence the 200% rapture buff) and this change (without additional mana gain changes, and if so just skip making them as well) would be disastrous, a small mana increase but keeping the current output could be something to consider.

    Personal suggestions:
    1. Make rapture 175% mana.
    2. Revert DA to 30 (40?)%
    3. Buff GH's output, reduce the mana cost slightly.
    4. Possibly buff defensive penance/flash heal (would also help pvp).
    5. Possibly increase SS cd to 90 seconds (wouldn't be required if blizz didn't design 50% of all fights around damage coming out every ~1 min).

    These are all really simple yet effective changes, something I would like to see (if blizz can make it happen without screwing up the numbers) would be changing PoH from group targetting and balance it accordingly but that'd probably just put us in the gutter for five patches as blizz try to sort out the numbers.

    Regarding pvp, discs most glaring issues are lack of decent cc+survival (and arguably lack of healing/dmg output), both of these could obviously be fixed easily without affecting pve, buffing the damage of sw/sw:d would increase the damage output without affecting pve and reducing flash heals mana cost/defensive penance healing wouldn't be bad changes for pve either (at least our aoe healing was nerfed and GH was buffed as well).

  14. #14
    The Patient Iannis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Ironforge
    Posts
    235
    Quote Originally Posted by Heap View Post
    All that's needed really is a longer cooldown on SS to make people not feel so bad looking at recount.
    Absolutely.
    The hate/jealousy people have towards Disc right now comes from SS. A simple increase in the cooldown on SS, would make everyone feel better when they look at the lamecount.

    The reason well played Disc priests are head and shoulders above everyone else is because they know when to use SS. Start precasting it before huge aoe damage spikes and BAM, meter gods.

    Nothing else needs to be tweaked, no DA, no mana cost increase, nothing. Just turn SS into say a 2.5-3min cd and that'll be perfect. That way you wont be able to pop it on every single aoe pulse.

  15. #15
    Nerf Spirit shell to the ground. That's all.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    Nerf Spirit shell to the ground. That's all.
    Still won't fix the issues of over-reliance on a group targeted dumb heal and on short CDs. Anyway, my ideas:

    -Give Spirit Shell a three minute CD. Then re-work it so that when used with PoH it divides the absorbs (at some percentage less than 100% and with a cap) among the entire raid. That would make Spirit Shell easier to balance, since it would be filling the same niche as Tranquility and Divine Hymn. It would also fix the QoL timing issues with using Spirit Shell in a twenty-five man raid.

    -Turn Prayer of Healing in to a smart heal that hits the target and the four lowest health raid members within thirty yards. Then nerf the output accordingly, so it's on about the same level as Chain Heal. I know Blizz's rationale for not doing this used to be that they didn't want non-shaman classes spamming an AoE heal, but we're already spamming PoH and it's not really possible to balance as a dumb heal.

    -Return Archangel to its old 15% healing/5% mana version, and change Penance so it doesn't stack Evangelism. Because of its short thirty second CD, Archangel should be a minor bonus, rather than mandatory.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    Still won't fix the issues of over-reliance on a group targeted dumb heal and on short CDs. Anyway, my ideas:
    -Give Spirit Shell a three minute CD. Then re-work it so that when used with PoH it divides the absorbs (at some percentage less than 100% and with a cap) among the entire raid. That would make Spirit Shell easier to balance, since it would be filling the same niche as Tranquility and Divine Hymn. It would also fix the QoL timing issues with using Spirit Shell in a twenty-five man raid. .
    So people would stack disc for barrier+spirit shell, raid cooldown awesomeness. Turning SS into a 3mins raid CD will make things worse.

    -Turn Prayer of Healing in to a smart heal that hits the target and the four lowest health raid members within thirty yards. Then nerf the output accordingly, so it's on about the same level as Chain Heal. I know Blizz's rationale for not doing this used to be that they didn't want non-shaman classes spamming an AoE heal, but we're already spamming PoH and it's not really possible to balance as a dumb heal.
    Priests have that spell, it's called circle of healing.
    Group based healing feels outdated, I agree. But another AoE smart heal? Classes feel the same already, turning PoH into yet another chain or circle is a pretty boring wish.

    Fixing disc's numbers is easy. Lower SS by some % or increase CD by 15-30 seconds. Done. SS has no real impact on PvP anyway. People are obsessed with numbers, the moment disc stops dominating world of logs, the discussion about OPness will stop.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    649
    No, Disc is strong but not OP.

    Anyway I would just shift some spell power around (but not reduce any overall):

    - Spirit Shell is too strong in comparison - make it a bit weaker and in return buff some other spells, especially those that are for single-target or emergency healing (like Penance). That would solve 2 problems at once: spirit shell not being as dominant (in comparison to all other spells) as it is right now, and Disc becoming better at tank healing once again
    - Rapture mana return in combination with trinket effects is probably too good, but I assume that Rapture will get nerfed to 150% of spirit again in the future when everyone has better gear on average

  19. #19
    Disc is strong but not OP.
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/#0000...00000000111111

    The data disagrees no matter how you look at it. After 5.1, Monks are now in line, and disc is the new monk.
    What I will give you is that the distance isn't so humongous that a major nerf is required.
    After all, it wasn't THAT a major buff that put disc into its current position. All that is needed is a few adjustments.

    --

    Rapture need to return a fixed amount of mana
    Make it not scale with spirit. No other regen tools scale with stats anymore...

    Divine Aegis is far too strong
    Compare it to Holy's echoes of light and sanctuary stance. DA wins: it's always enabled, it's stronger, and it's offering absorbs. Why would anyone want to be holy?
    A nerf to this would solve it, and I suggest simply lowering thee DA bonus from PoH slightly... it doesn't need to be much, but you need to not make DA crush Holy's equivalents. When it does not, disc should be in line with all the other healers.

    Spirit Shell may need some adjusting
    It has a design issue due to stacking so well with all those other cooldowns. Not really sure how to solve that though! In some ways, I also think it is okay as-is; and that this is simply a numbers issue.

    --

    Now if I could go nuts with Priest changes, I would also...... kill chakra, kill the PoH DA bonus, buff CoH/PoH/LW/DH baseline, kill grace, buff Renew/GHeal/Heal/FHeal baseline, redesign Shadowfiend/Mindbender into something more thematically appropriate, make PWS disc only, make renew Holy only, increase the survivability of priests through inner fire/inner will, make holy nova baseline instead of mind sear for healing priests, merge Divine Star and Holy Nova if taking that talent, merge fade and spectral guise and make both baseline, give disc holy's divine insight, kill off that annoying bug that makes healing priests with divine insight proc the shadow version when casting SWP, Kill Heal for disc and slightly lower the cost of GHeal, make Heal completely free of charge for holy, make Prayer of Mending stack, make PWS stack, remove that annoying bug that puts PWS into my mouse cursor if the target has weakened soul, kill hymn of hope off for good, take back the flying levitate ability from monks, add around 10 more interesting healing glyphs, redesign PoH into something that isn't party based somehow, give healing priests the spell haste raid buff since that is so hard to find these days, make phantasm baseline or add a real PVP bonus to the other two talents in that tier, change mana into D3 wizard arcane energy because honestly it just isn't fun to spend the first expansion tier being horribly mana starved, is anyone still reading this anyway, redesign holy's synergy on flash heal and replace it with a spell we actually cast and yeah I could keep going but this is getting a bit too long.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  20. #20
    Disc isent that OP, it's simply ahead of the curve atm.
    If you scann through meters, the difference in healing output between disc, and lets say resto shamy. It's less of a difference than the dps difference between affliction lock and shadow priest.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •