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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    With what Disc has right now, it's top on a couple of fights and fairly middle of the pack in competitiveness on most of them. Where do you think Disc will end up with the changes that you've recommended? Top on zero fights and bottom on quite a few. How is that balanced?

    Atonement spam isn't a good way to produce a solid healing output. Look at the top disc priests. They are doing a little atonement, but it's hardly having a huge impact on the raid's DPS. They're not smite spamming the entire fight because pure atonement healing is inferior to all other healers. Even on fights where it can shine, it's not that great. Uptime on Elegon is minimal, Wind Lord's raid damage is minimal for most of the +dmg times on normal and heroic, so there's nobody but the tank to heal with it. On Garalon there are far better things to do than try to heal through atonement on the legs. There isn't one fight where atonement is primarily used and trumps other classes, so there isn't one fight where a disc priest is doing great DPS unless they're doing poor healing. That's a bad priest.

    Spirit Shell is strong, of course, but only overwhelmingly on several fights with very predictable raid damage bursts. Why is it so bad that Disc gets to shine by doing exactly what it's designed for on a small fraction of the fights in this tier? Yeah, just a few. It's not like every fight is topped by disc priests spamming spirit shell.
    Complete rubbish.

    Discipline dominates nearly every fight because of the way raid damage works:

    HC Stone Guardians? Spirit Shell can prevent a wipe here even if you mess up. No other raid CD (outside of a stacked raid under PW:B lol) or AM/Rallying can do this, but Spirit Shell's CD is so small it allows you to totally play like mongs and get through the fight.

    HC Feng? Arcane Velocity vs Spirit Shell, Spirit Shell wins.

    HC Garajal? Atonement is very strong here. It's how most guilds did their first kills: 4 healers with a smiting Disc Priest for the entire fight for a) added dps and b) solid healing on those who need it

    HC Spirit Kings? Granted, Disc isn't "that strong here" but it's still among the top 2 healers (monks/pallies tied for #1 spot IMO)

    HC Elegon? Monks > Discs on this fight, but that's because Monks dominate p2/p3 due to Eminence.

    HC Will? Spirit Shell prevents wipes.

    HC Vizier? Spirit Shell vs F&V? Spirit Shell wins.

    HC Blade Lord? Spirit Shell makes the only hard mechanic (Unseen Strike) negated.

    HC Garalon? Discs tied with Monks here, Disc is really good on this fight though.

    HC Windlord? This fight is gimmicky so badly, it's dumb to even use it. Monks do well, all classes do. Atonement is strong because it's 600% stronger.

    HC Ambershaper? Disc is strong here. Spirit Shell can mean you can survive a few bads messing up with the construct.

    HC Shek'zeer? Spirit Shell is really, really strong all over the shop here. The only "negative" is that Disc Priests take a lot of damage from the Sonic Explosion due to low armour values.

    HC Protectors? Discs raid CDs help so hard here and will be mandatory (stacking wise) for heroic elite, this is common knowledge.

    HC Tsulong? Monks own this fight. We have all our Priests go Holy for Guardian Spirit: Holy performs really well in the Night phase though.

    HC Lei Shi? Disc does well here, but the fight is a joke. It's easy.

    HC Sha of Fear? Atonement is king for healing. Absorbs can negate *almost* all thrashes/dread thrashes.

    Disc is strong on every single fight. On Most Disc is ridiculous.

    Signed, someone who's done 16/16 HC: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/frostmane/Nymzee/

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    With what Disc has right now, it's top on a couple of fights and fairly middle of the pack in competitiveness on most of them. Where do you think Disc will end up with the changes that you've recommended? Top on zero fights and bottom on quite a few. How is that balanced?
    Disc is certainly much better than top on a "couple of fights." Discipline Priests absolutely destroy the meters in HoF 25m HM and are very competitive in HoF 10m HM. Disc performs well in 10m HM and 25 HM MSV. WoL isn't showing logs for Heroic ToES kills, but Discipline does very well even in Normal ToES. Yes, we lack strong throughput in Tsulong Day phase like other healers can do, but we can make up for that in the Night phase. And if Tsulong is the only fight that we're not good for, then I can live with that. 1/16 in a whole tier is pretty damn good. Every other fight we can be competitive.

    Even on fights where [Atonement] can shine, it's not that great. Uptime on Elegon is minimal, Wind Lord's raid damage is minimal for most of the +dmg times on normal and heroic, so there's nobody but the tank to heal with it.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=7019#Tsjarlie
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...0&e=3528#Siory
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&e=3734#Averna
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...337#Holygraíl
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&e=8071#Daedra

    5 of the top 10 parses in the world for Heroic 25 Wind Lord. One had very low Atonement usage and the other 4 were not in English so I'm not going to rely on Google translations. Of these 5 parses, Atonement accounted for anywhere in between 3.7m and 6.3m of the Priest's total healing done. Here's five of the top of the 10 parses for Disc Priests in the world with massive amounts of Atonement healing on Heroic Elegon.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...=5859#Harddisc
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...1476#Deaconess
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...1&e=10158#Feja
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&e=4621#Natrii
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...1874#Lisacuddy

    Not every high parsing Priest has lots of Atonement usage on those fights, but Atonement can do significant healing on those fights.

    Spirit Shell is strong, of course, but only overwhelmingly on several fights with very predictable raid damage bursts. Why is it so bad that Disc gets to shine by doing exactly what it's designed for on a small fraction of the fights in this tier? Yeah, just a few. It's not like every fight is topped by disc priests spamming spirit shell.
    There's nothing wrong with Discipline excelling at what it is designed to do--prevent damage for predicted large bursts. The problem is that Discipline is ahead of every other spec in HPS (with far greater disparities in 25m) on top of having excellent mana management, great CDs, Spirit Shell absorbs obscene amounts of damage when used on the whole raid, and Disc brings strong tank healing. I enjoy being a Discipline Priest, partially because the spec is so much stronger than Holy, but let's be honest with ourselves: Discipline is overpowered.

    Of the heroics I've done (5/6 MSV, 2/6 HoF), I completely agree with HamSandwich. Tsulong is the only fight where I can see myself being asked to go Holy or, at worst, benched for someone else with better HPS in the Day phase.
    Last edited by notdryad; 2012-12-18 at 02:55 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Complete rubbish.
    I'm going to assume from several of your comments that you're only talking about 10-man raids. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    HC Stone Guardians? Spirit Shell can prevent a wipe here even if you mess up. No other raid CD (outside of a stacked raid under PW:B lol) or AM/Rallying can do this, but Spirit Shell's CD is so small it allows you to totally play like mongs and get through the fight.
    Maybe in 10man it can do this if you have enough warning to get an unprotected explosion, but certainly it's not enough to do so in 25. Even in 10s it requires perfect range on everybody or it's still a wipe, and it requires enough warning to actually spam PoH long enough to fully stack it otherwise people will still die. It hardly means you can ignore mechanics and have slow tank taunts, so you're not really correct.

    HC Feng? Arcane Velocity vs Spirit Shell, Spirit Shell wins.
    There's a 3% difference in the average of the top 100 disc priests and holy pallies on this fight. Doesn't seem that overwhelming.

    HC Garajal? Atonement is very strong here. It's how most guilds did their first kills: 4 healers with a smiting Disc Priest for the entire fight for a) added dps and b) solid healing on those who need it
    So atonement *was* very strong here? Ridiculous raid stacking for first week of content kills is hardly something that's relevant right now. If we're going to talk about 2 months ago, we should include the class balance from then. Or not and focus on now. Now, Disc only beats Holy and monks on Gara'jal.

    HC Spirit Kings? Granted, Disc isn't "that strong here" but it's still among the top 2 healers (monks/pallies tied for #1 spot IMO)
    If monks and pallies are tied for #1, that puts disc at #3 not #2. Pretty simple math here. 3 out of 5 healer classes is very middle of the pack, I'd say.

    HC Elegon? Monks > Discs on this fight, but that's because Monks dominate p2/p3 due to Eminence.
    Holy pallies are actually averaging higher output even than monks on elegon hm. If you think monks > disc, and hpals > monks, then again priests are 3rd out of 5.

    HC Will? Spirit Shell prevents wipes.
    Again, disc is 3rd on heals for this fight. Noticing a trend here? Yeah, we have a really strong cooldown to make up for less throughput than hpals and monks. Claiming that spirit shell prevents wipes constantly is exactly what it's designed to do. We don't have overwhelming throughput, but we bring very timely absorbs. That's not overpowered on its own.

    HC Vizier? Spirit Shell vs F&V? Spirit Shell wins.
    Yes. Disc is extremely powerful on this fight. That's one that you found so far.

    HC Blade Lord? Spirit Shell makes the only hard mechanic (Unseen Strike) negated.
    Yes. Disc is extremely powerful on this fight. That's two that you found so far.

    HC Garalon? Discs tied with Monks here, Disc is really good on this fight though.
    Again, disc is below monks and pallies. 3rd out of 5. Exactly middle of the pack. I hope you're noticing a trend by now.

    HC Windlord? This fight is gimmicky so badly, it's dumb to even use it. Monks do well, all classes do. Atonement is strong because it's 600% stronger.
    Atonement is not strong on this fight. The disc priests doing well are not relying on it very much. Their heals consist primarily of spirit shell/da/poh. The raid damage just isn't there to really take advantage of insane atonement.

    HC Ambershaper? Disc is strong here. Spirit Shell can mean you can survive a few bads messing up with the construct.
    A few bads messing up at the same time? No. And Spirit Shell isn't the only thing that can help you survive isolated screw ups. Disc is strong for this, though. That's 3.

    HC Shek'zeer? Spirit Shell is really, really strong all over the shop here. The only "negative" is that Disc Priests take a lot of damage from the Sonic Explosion due to low armour values.
    Yep. Predictable, huge raid damage. It's what disc is designed for. That's 4.

    HC Protectors? Discs raid CDs help so hard here and will be mandatory (stacking wise) for heroic elite, this is common knowledge.
    "Common knowledge" is very empty. Let's stick to things we can actually discuss. Right now, the data is nonexistent since WoL isn't recognizing HM ToES kills as valid. The only real evidence is in your own raid, and obviously that's not good enough to draw conclusions from. I hope you don't need an explanation on why that is.

    HC Tsulong? Monks own this fight. We have all our Priests go Holy for Guardian Spirit: Holy performs really well in the Night phase though.
    Holy is great in both phases. No argument there. I thought we were talking about how omgoverpowerednerfnow Disc is, though?

    HC Lei Shi? Disc does well here, but the fight is a joke. It's easy.
    ....

    HC Sha of Fear? Atonement is king for healing. Absorbs can negate *almost* all thrashes/dread thrashes.
    Again, HM ToES hasn't been done enough to really draw class balance issues from. Disc isn't being completely stacked to tackle this fight, and that's about all we know atm.

    Disc is strong on every single fight. On Most Disc is ridiculous.
    "Most" is defined as 4 out of 16 fights, now? That seems pretty strange. And strong is defined as now the weakest (3rd out of 5 very often)? I guess we have to agree to disagree if that's how you define those terms.

  4. #44
    Atonement is not strong on this fight. The disc priests doing well are not relying on it very much. Their heals consist primarily of spirit shell/da/poh. The raid damage just isn't there to really take advantage of insane atonement.
    Top logs disagree with you, actually. I don't know why you keep insisting that the fights favoring Atonement aren't good for Atonement, but it's just factually incorrect.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by notdryad View Post
    Disc is certainly much better than top on a "couple of fights." Discipline Priests absolutely destroy the meters in HoF 25m HM and are very competitive in HoF 10m HM. Disc performs well in 10m HM and 25 HM MSV. WoL isn't showing logs for Heroic ToES kills, but Discipline does very well even in Normal ToES. Yes, we lack strong throughput in Tsulong Day phase like other healers can do, but we can make up for that in the Night phase. And if Tsulong is the only fight that we're not good for, then I can live with that. 1/16 in a whole tier is pretty damn good. Every other fight we can be competitive.
    Totally agree about 25-man HM HoF. However, straight nerfs like people keep suggesting will fix that and make them totally unviable in 10-mans. They need a much more intelligent approach, and understanding what makes Disc so much stronger in 25s while not being incredibly OP in 10s is key to that. Put a total value cap on spirit shell, for instance. It already effectively caps out in 10s, which is what keeps it balanced

    5 of the top 10 parses in the world for Heroic 25 Wind Lord. One had very low Atonement usage and the other 4 were not in English so I'm not going to rely on Google translations. Of these 5 parses, Atonement accounted for anywhere in between 3.7m and 6.3m of the Priest's total healing done. Here's five of the top of the 10 parses for Disc Priests in the world with massive amounts of Atonement healing on Heroic Elegon.
    Atonement is basically 10-15% of their healing, and you're saying that it's sooo overpowered on these fights? 10-15% of their healing.

    And look how monks and pallies are doing compared to that. Better. How does them being able to spam atonement and do alright mean it's overpowered? Maybe if disc was topping this fight, too, it would be relevant.

    There's nothing wrong with Discipline excelling at what it is designed to do--prevent damage for predicted large bursts. The problem is that Discipline is ahead of every other spec in HPS (with far greater disparities in 25m) on top of having excellent mana management, great CDs, Spirit Shell absorbs obscene amounts of damage when used on the whole raid, and Disc brings strong tank healing. I enjoy being a Discipline Priest, partially because the spec is so much stronger than Holy, but let's be honest with ourselves: Discipline is overpowered.
    I agree in 25-mans. Not in 10-mans, which is what almost everybody has discussed in here. And flat nerfs to this or that would make disc unplayable in 10-mans while bringing it down to a level playing field in 25s. That's hardly acceptable.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 09:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by notdryad View Post
    Top logs disagree with you, actually. I don't know why you keep insisting that the fights favoring Atonement aren't good for Atonement, but it's just factually incorrect.
    Yeah? Which fight has priests topping it AND them relying primarily on atonement? You need both of those for it to mean that atonement is overpowered on any fight.

  6. #46
    When did I ever specifically state that Atonement is overpowered? I never did. I only said that Atonement can do significant healing on the fights that favor it (what an amazing concept that abilities favored by certain mechanics perform well on those fights). Previously, I only used the word "overpowered" once to describe Discipline Priests as a whole. If any ability we have is overpowered, it is Spirit Shell by far.

    Perhaps you're confusing "significant" with "overpowered"? They aren't always synonyms.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/significant

    of a noticeably or measurably large amount
    In many, if not all, of the logs that I found, Atonement was at least 10% of the Priest's healing done or in the top 3 or 4 spells used. Last I knew, that would be considered significant. I would not even come close to saying that Atonement is overpowered when Elegon and Wind Lord are the only fights that Atonement does well compared to Spirit Shell being powerful on, well, essentially every fight right now in this tier.

    I'm going to assume from several of your comments that you're only talking about 10-man raids. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    He's talking about 25m. You would have known this if you did some research.
    Last edited by notdryad; 2012-12-18 at 03:29 AM.

  7. #47
    It's kinda funny how people forgot that Discipline has more than one raid cooldown. Barrier has been completely overshadowed by Spirit Shell - to the extent that some believe that the spec would be 'broken' without it and keep claiming that "it's only great on half of fights". Almost as if Discipline didn't offer great hps without it, with unique mechanic that can't be duplicated by any other spec - except maybe Holy Pallies with absurd amount of Mastery, which isn't realistic.

    Sure, there's few fights where Spirit Shell can fail. Sure there's couple bosses with random timers that can mess it up. But even so, what do you actually lose? If there was no damage during all that time, no one did any healing anyway. If there was, it got absorbed so no one else healed either. Win win situation. Sure it would have been great to absorbs 3 millions instead of 500k, but that's still decent.

    Can't even use mana as an excuse. It's barely first tier and PoH spam is sustainable for massive amount of time. So what if you "wasted" mana on that "failed" Spirit Shell. Fire off that Mindbender and get Rapture during Spirit proc/clicky trinket, you're back to full.

    Honestly, "we only prevent HALF of EVERY OTHER Force and Verve of instead of absorbing the entire thing, so it's balanced", when all other cooldown are on 3 minute timer - or don't work on physical damage... It's laughable.

    I'd prefer if I got nerfed now, so I get plenty of time to adjust, rather than being broken with 5.2 patch. That'll give Blizz enough time to fine tune things... Assuming they even want to do it, instead of tweaking PoH yet *again*. And maybe it'll be a chance to play Holy, too. Right now, it's completely useless outside of being GS bitch on Tsulong. The one and only fight where Discs can call themselves weak.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by notdryad View Post
    When did I ever specifically state that Atonement is overpowered? I never did. I only said that Atonement can do significant healing on the fights that favor it (what an amazing concept that abilities favored by certain mechanics perform well on those fights). Previously, I only used the word "overpowered" once to describe Discipline Priests as a whole. If any ability we have is overpowered, it is Spirit Shell by far.

    Perhaps you're confusing "significant" with "overpowered"? They aren't always synonyms.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/significant



    In many, if not all, of the logs that I found, Atonement was at least 10% of the Priest's healing done or in the top 3 or 4 spells used. Last I knew, that would be considered significant. I would not even come close to saying that Atonement is overpowered when Elegon and Wind Lord are the only fights that Atonement does well compared to Spirit Shell being powerful on, well, essentially every fight right now in this tier.



    He's talking about 25m. You would have known this if you did some research.
    Linking the dictionary, assuming you're the only person in the world in here who might have tossed around the word overpowered? Saying I should have researched his post (what does that even mean?) when clearly some of his remarks about wipe saving are only relevant to 10-mans?

    If you want to sound intelligent, you should do something other than say that I'm stupid, which is essentially all that your post boils down to. That argument only makes you look wise and learned around 8 year olds, and I don't think that's really what you're going for here.

  9. #49
    Disc is slightly too good in the current tier, much due to the way that most fights are setup. Disc excels at predictable raid (burst) damage, discs aren't superior when it comes to constant/unpredictable raid damage, nor. for tank healing. If you are going to cry about disc, at least cry about the proper things or you clearly have no experience with the class. Atonement is in no way overpowered right now, the only time it's superior to standard heals, heal, gheal, fheal, is when you simply need to spotheal low damage or since you need to build evengalism/atonement anyways, atonement is very weak for pure healing (and no, the 2 relevant damage buffs don't change that, especially since the heavy raiddamage makes PoH superior in those moments anyway). Tankhealing is atrocious, as soon as we have to use anything bar penance and pw:s in tankhealing our effectiveness, both hps and hpm plummets way below any other class (gheal/fheal are in a horrible state atm).

    TLDR: Do nerf the niche that disc excel in, however make sure that we are on-par to the other classes when it comes to tank healing (something many people played a disc priest to excel at in the first place). Alternatively, just have a more diverse fights in the next tier.


    Regarding a few posts:
    Barrier
    Barrier is a niche raid cd, being good when players are grouped up and quite useless when spread. Looking historically on how many fights you need to be spread on/how many fights with raid-wide magic/physical damage we have it's way more niche than say devotion aura. Just removing spirit shell will give us by far (yes below resto druids) the worst raid utility cd.


    Sure, there's few fights where Spirit Shell can fail. Sure there's couple bosses with random timers that can mess it up. But even so, what do you actually lose? If there was no damage during all that time, no one did any healing anyway. If there was, it got absorbed so no one else healed either. Win win situation. Sure it would have been great to absorbs 3 millions instead of 500k, but that's still decent.
    You don't understand that dedicating at least one big cd (often used with AA and/or PI as well), which you call 'op', 15 seconds of casting (not regenerating mana, nor dpsing, nor building evengalism, nor tankhealing) is huge? If we see more fights like this in the next tier (like lei-shi) disc will not be in a very good spot even in its current state.


    Can't even use mana as an excuse. It's barely first tier and PoH spam is sustainable for massive amount of time. So what if you "wasted" mana on that "failed" Spirit Shell. Fire off that Mindbender and get Rapture during Spirit proc/clicky trinket, you're back to full.
    Mana is never entirely a non-issue for a proper player, if it is you should start reforging/regemming for more output


    My thoughts regarding OP's post, I haven't done any math regarding your suggestion, these are simply my thoughts upon viewing them:
    1. Similar to mana tide, fine (personally I'd rather encourage this timing/not punish certain trinkets and nerf it down to 175% instead, but either would work and accomplish pmuch the same thing, making disc care about spirit past the 11-12k mark).
    2. If discs aoe healing is getting nerfed we do need a buff to our single target (it's atrocious atm), this would remove some rng and fix this, is fine.
    3. Why? If you want to avoid that disc has spirit shell up for every cruical aoe ability on some fights (which wouldn't be as big if it wasn't for the fact that many fights have them on a 1 min cd, might change in the next tier) just change it to 90 seconds, your suggestion is just annoying and makes not having the 4p an even bigger hit.
    4. Pointless and boring, it'll cap out anyways and the long duration will basically ensure that it'll be up for the next aoe damage, just making it a fire and forget button. The only interesting part would be to judge when you want to cancel the shell buff, but I'd find that annoying more than anything.
    5. Just don't nerf rapture then? Sure, remove spirit procs from rapture and add 5% mana to archangel, haven't ran the numbers but I doubt that this would be a nerf even for a BiS priest.
    6/7. I'm struggling to see how solace+sf is more interesting than mindbender+smite, you'll press the same buttons and get about the same result (a bit more mana, a bit less healing/damage I guess). That solace doesn't fit discs design to start with (we already have something to do during luls in damage, building evangelism/archangel) is another matter.
    8. I suppose this could be fine with the changes to solace+archangel, but it wasn't long ago that discs were having massive mana issues (hence the 200% rapture buff) and this change (without additional mana gain changes, and if so just skip making them as well) would be disastrous, a small mana increase but keeping the current output could be something to consider.

    Personal suggestions:
    1. Make rapture 175% mana.
    2. Revert DA to 30 (40?)%
    3. Buff GH's output, reduce the mana cost slightly.
    4. Possibly buff defensive penance/flash heal (would also help pvp).
    5. Possibly increase SS cd to 90 seconds (wouldn't be required if blizz didn't design 50% of all fights around damage coming out every ~1 min).

    These are all really simple yet effective changes, something I would like to see (if blizz can make it happen without screwing up the numbers) would be changing PoH from group targetting and balance it accordingly but that'd probably just put us in the gutter for five patches as blizz try to sort out the numbers.

    Regarding pvp, discs most glaring issues are lack of decent cc+survival (and arguably lack of healing/dmg output), both of these could obviously be fixed easily without affecting pve, buffing the damage of sw/sw:d would increase the damage output without affecting pve and reducing flash heals mana cost/defensive penance healing wouldn't be bad changes for pve either (at least our aoe healing was nerfed and GH was buffed as well).

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    I'm going to assume from several of your comments that you're only talking about 10-man raids. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    No. 25 man.

    Heroic ToES is currently bugged on WoL (understandably). However to deny that Disc isn't strong on every single fight is just dumb.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...t_of_Fear/hps/

    Most of the Garalon logs are pre 5.1 (where Monks were ridiculous, I agree). Everything else is dominated by Discs (even when you DO include the pre 5.1 logs).

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/hps/

    Again, pre 5.1 Monks will remain high because there was no purge (although I made a request for a purge to all logs) and Paladins are topping due to their (slightly) broken PvP 4 set.

    Please don't talk about heroic content if you haven't done all 16 bosses, have them on farm, and play with Priests in 500+ ilvl. Spirit Shell scaling is ridiculous, as is Mastery scaling for absorption effects.

    Also just a little note: Heroic Elite Protectors of the Endless will put the raid into a state where every player is taking 200k dmg/sec for around 2-3 minutes, and a good way to mitigate this damage is via barrier, spirit shell, and AM. Hence why I believe, and I'm pretty sure others do too, that you'll be 4 healing this fight (with 1 tank) with a healing setup of 3 Discs and 1 Paladin.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post

    Please don't talk about heroic content if you haven't done all 16 bosses, have them on farm, and play with Priests in 500+ ilvl. Spirit Shell scaling is ridiculous, as is Mastery scaling for absorption effects.
    This is a great way exclude 99.87% + of the raiding population and basically says "my opinion is what counts". Your opinion may be worth listening to, but is also your perspective. A perspective that the vast majority of raiders do not have, because they either do not raid at that level, or raid 25's, or both.

    Balancing has always been difficult and will remain so. There is a long history of certain classes, healers or otherwise, standing above the rest. Right now Disc is a bit too good, but based on my knowledge/experience, this is mainly in 25's.

    Sure there are mechanics in 10's where not having a disc makes life more uncomfortable or borderline impossible but do remember the context of what is being discussed here: early progression. Once people are BiS or close to it, those mechanics that previously may have wiped a raid due to one shot will no longer be anything like the threat they were on first kills. Class stacking has been a feature of early progress for a considerable time, and I have little doubt it will continue to be so.
    Disc is generally the healer which effectively allows people to live where a single mechanic may otherwise exceed their total health, but with the introduction of SS it also gives them the opportunity to take first bite of the healing cherry for ~25% of a fight.

    Personally I think mastery scaling should be toned down and as is usual, Blizz have underestimated gear scaling. They do have a problem making substantial changes right now though, as raid design is influenced by class abilities. Big nerfs to disc right now could make some encounters extremely unpleasant, besides this, it wasn't so long ago we talked about how much Disc was suffering. Blizz have a tough job here.

  12. #52
    I seriously think that this guy doesn't have 16/16 or is just carried hard by his guild. What kind of a bs is "spirit shell can prevent wipes" seriously? I understand using it before amber explosion just in case, because it will be absorbed by other sources of damage but other than that you are being ridiculous.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    I seriously think that this guy doesn't have 16/16 or is just carried hard by his guild. What kind of a bs is "spirit shell can prevent wipes" seriously? I understand using it before amber explosion just in case, because it will be absorbed by other sources of damage but other than that you are being ridiculous.
    Spirit shell can prevent wipes to messing up, it's a fact. Sha of Fear HC escalates this to a level higher than any fight I've ever seen. A tank fucks up and doesn't have a CD ready for Dread Thrash? A Paladin cannot sac him because of Huddle (huddle tears through Divine Shield and removes it), a Warrior cannot intervene because he'll die to Dread Thrash as all the attacks happen in the same second (and the game client doesn't update regularly enough to compensate), a Warrior cannot use Rallying Cry/Demo banner because they're CDs needed for Huddle in case 2 healers, or more, get Huddle. What else is there to do? Power Word: Shield and Spirit Shell stacking on the main tank, and 400k~ of the damage is completely absorbed. It's a joke.

    Spirit Shell, as a tank CD, is about as strong as a Mistweaver's Life Cocoon, but it's party wide (with PoH), has half the CD and also scales with your mastery. Remember, I'm totally ignoring the fact you also have the second strongest raid CD (arguably), Power Word: Barrier, and one of the most effective tank CDs in the game, Pain Suppression.
    Last edited by HamSandwichFace; 2012-12-18 at 12:46 PM.

  14. #54
    I am not saying that spirit shell can't prevent wipes. But no good priest will use it to prevent wipes. Why use it on explosions when you have a chance to do 0 healing with it. If its a guaranteed f*ck up, what kind of a guild is that anyway..

  15. #55
    Directed at Ham:
    Yes, spirit shell can be used to prevent wipes in certain circumstances (in 25 man a significant amount of other help is required to make that happen). Can it be used to do this if you don't know that the 'wipe' is coming up ~10 seconds ahead of time, no. You talk about heroic modes yet seem to expect that your raid members will fuck up constantly AND that your disc priest knows exactly when this is going to happen, damn that guy is carrying you badly.

    Yes most fights in this tier have predictable burst damage which favors proactive over reactive healing, and if it stays the same in the next tier disc should be tuned down (and if the next tier happens to be more focused on heavy tank damage and sporadic raid damage we'll probably be below average), however you are incredibly biased and completely unable to look at things remotely objectively.

    E.g.
    What else is there to do? Power Word: Shield and Spirit Shell stacking on the main tank, and 400k~ of the damage is completely absorbed. It's a joke.

    Spirit Shell, as a tank CD, is about as strong as a Mistweaver's Life Cocoon, but it's party wide (with PoH), has half the CD and also scales with your mastery.
    You actually claim that spirit shell stacking on the tank, which takes time to set up and has a high chance of being removed/lowered before the burst comes out is as strong as a cd that does the exact same thing instantly? You mention that spirit shell scales, guess what, cocoon scales as well (and to my knowledge without the cap, though I don't play a monk so I may be wrong regarding this). Yes, I'd rather have spirit shell than life cocoon simply due to how strong it is for aoe healing, but saying that it's superior as a tank cd/emergency button is just silly.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    I seriously think that this guy doesn't have 16/16 or is just carried hard by his guild. What kind of a bs is "spirit shell can prevent wipes" seriously? I understand using it before amber explosion just in case, because it will be absorbed by other sources of damage but other than that you are being ridiculous.
    +1

    ppl tend to forget while using the "spirit shell" cool down your not healing em your just mitigating dmg, so if the player is on 1 hp he will still be on 1 hp with a bouble and will still die if the other healers in the group is healing him up

    also as a disco you have to make the choise, commiting to mastery or crit/haste which will either make you a good at shielding but slighty worse on normal healing, or with crit/haste better at smiting but slightly worse shields..

    looking at my guildies which i heal with (Rshaman,Rdruid and me as disco), we end up 1/3th each on most of the encounters so i dont see any OP problems, also the biggest issue is that meters are designed to measure the first heal that hits a player.. so if there is a shield it will count the shield over the other classes heals.

    for all the OP kiddies out there: meters are just pice of shit it does not say anything about the players in the raid/encounter , if you feel that class x is OP roll it instead of whining, i think Blizz have a good sence of what is OP and what is not.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    I am not saying that spirit shell can't prevent wipes. But no good priest will use it to prevent wipes. Why use it on explosions when you have a chance to do 0 healing with it. If its a guaranteed f*ck up, what kind of a guild is that anyway..
    So raid CDs should never be used because, y'know, the potential to mess up is never present. Lag doesn't exist, idiocy doesn't exist, trialing new people doesn't exist (who may not know the proper mechanics of the fight) etc.

    FYI if you think tanks not having a CD up for Dread Thrash is "uncommon" you're pretty mistaken, between the thrashes, timing active mitigation, waterspouts and implaceable strike they'll (at some point in the 12-13 minutes of p2) find themselves without a CD for Dread Thrash: it happens every 40 seconds after all.

  18. #58
    Buff other classes maybe, instead of nerfing everything?

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Raptoos View Post
    Buff other classes maybe, instead of nerfing everything?
    If all healers were "equal" to Disc Priests, you'd be 2-3 healing encounters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    You actually claim that spirit shell stacking on the tank, which takes time to set up and has a high chance of being removed/lowered before the burst comes out is as strong as a cd that does the exact same thing instantly? You mention that spirit shell scales, guess what, cocoon scales as well (and to my knowledge without the cap, though I don't play a monk so I may be wrong regarding this). Yes, I'd rather have spirit shell than life cocoon simply due to how strong it is for aoe healing, but saying that it's superior as a tank cd/emergency button is just silly.
    But unlike Mistweavers you also have PS and PW:B which are both far superior to the Monk counterparts Life Cocoon and Revival.

    If you think Discipline is balanced, despite the fact Discipline is rank 1-10 on most post 5.1 (hence: after the much needed monk nerf) then you're delusional. Just like with Monks, it's not right when you're seeing guilds stack Disc Priests for Shek'zeer and having Resto Druids/Resto Shaman/Mistweavers (in flocks, one of ours did for example) reroll to a Disc Priest.

    I'm just suggesting "fair" nerfs, I think the scaling from mastery is too good, I think Rapture working with short-term spirit bonuses (and CDs like MTT) is completely ridiculous and I finally think PoH/SS combo, in it's current iteration, is far too powerful. Something needs to be nerfed. Something will get nerfed. Disc is only going to get stronger and stronger unless they add in a new mechanic to t15 where a boss applies a debuff which reverses absorption effects to also deal damage.

    The only bad fight for Discipline this tier is all forms (LFR, Normal and especially Heroic) of the Tsulong encounter. I admit Monks are very strong here: borderline OP, 400-500k hps where every other healer is capping out at around 200-300k~ is a huge gap and not having a Monk here is a massive gap which needs to be "fixed". However, Disc (even on this fight) only performs badly on half of the fight: all of the Day phase, during the Night phase Discipline is just as strong as any other spec. As I previously stated though, we have our (3) Disc Priests all go Holy for Guardian Spirit because Guardian Spirit + Life Cocoon + Sun Breath/The Light of Day is an enormously powerful combination of spells.
    Last edited by HamSandwichFace; 2012-12-18 at 06:22 PM.

  20. #60
    High Overlord Nokami's Avatar
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    If all healers were "equal" to Disc Priests, you'd be 2-3 healing encounters.
    Wrong, does all Healers have a Absorb Mechanic? No.

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