View Poll Results: Do you Support Assault Weapons Ban?

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  • Yes

    2,050 61.78%
  • No

    1,268 38.22%
  1. #25141
    If anything it's evidence that having a neighbor right to the north who has more guns than people makes gun control hard to enforce.
    This assumes that America is a major source of guns in Mexico. You forget that Mexico is linked to another continent (South America) full of countries with extreme levels of violence, poverty, and drugs (much of which carries into Mexico). It makes more sense to think Mexico's gun violence carries over to America (which it frequently does, as evidenced by cartel related killings along the border), where more regulation in America would just lead to more illegal guns coming in from Mexico/Canada/wherever else guns come from.

    I think the mistake in your logic is thinking that guns can only come from America.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin
    Why? Because fuck you, that's why.

    Every time you have a question that begins with "Why?" that is about what other people prefer to do with their own goddamn time, come back here, and reread the first row of this post. That will ALWAYS be the answer to your question. Have a nice day.

  2. #25142
    Pit Lord HBpapa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    Except, none of the firearms in that picture are legal to own by civilians in Mexico.
    I know. That was the whole point. The guns that are being regularly confiscated aren't even firearms or weapons that your average US citizen would be able to get their hands on. They are coming from the Mexican Army (and deserters thereof).

    Even the US ATF had to eat crow after publishing statements that 90% of the guns confiscated in Mexico were from US 'gunwalking' when an overwhelming majority turned out to be military weapons that were never in the hands of US citizens to begin with. They were US manufactured under contract with US government --> given/sold to Mexican military --> into the hands of cartels/criminals after legally crossing the boarder. I'm sure we'll see pigs fly before Mexico and their government actually take responsibility for their problems instead of blaming it on others (mainly the U.S.); especially when their government likes to fudge numbers and make false claims against the citizens of the US.
    Atheist, anti-theist, pro-gun, pro-Constitution, anti-racism, pro-gay rights, anti-war, anti-corporatism.

  3. #25143
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    This assumes that America is a major source of guns in Mexico. You forget that Mexico is linked to another continent (South America) full of countries with extreme levels of violence, poverty, and drugs (much of which carries into Mexico). It makes more sense to think Mexico's gun violence carries over to America (which it frequently does, as evidenced by cartel related killings along the border), where more regulation in America would just lead to more illegal guns coming in from Mexico/Canada/wherever else guns come from.

    I think the mistake in your logic is thinking that guns can only come from America.
    This is a perfect example of how failing to read other posts can at times turn into embarassing moments.

  4. #25144
    If you're going to ban Assault Weapons you might as well ban Pistols. Both are semi automatic, burst fire, or fully automatic. I know people more deadly with a hand gun vs a assault rifle. This ban would be pointless. To argue the "You don't hunt with assault rifles so I don't see the point of people having them." You don't hunt with hand guns so I don't see the point in having a hand gun. Many people hunt with all ranges of weapons but obviously a rifle is used more. Don't forget people go to 1 gun, 2 gun, and 3 gun competitions. People do use guns for more than hunting. I am against the ban as it will not solve anything. All this ban supports is more government control over the people. People will still die from people shooting them. Also, handguns are used more each year to kill vs assault rifles. Again, this ban would do nothing.

  5. #25145
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    So situation in the USA in terms of gun related homcides is acceptable?
    Acceptable is subjective.
    No one wants people to die but acceptable compared to what, another country?

  6. #25146
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    And how does higher firearms per capita correlate to violence? It doesn't. See Vermont.
    • Compared to high-income Asian countries (Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, and Japan), the
    firearm mortality rate in the U.S. is over 70 times higher (14.24 per 100,000 in the U.S.
    compared to 0.1925 per 100,000 in Asia). 12

    • Brazil has one of the world’s highest homicide rates, with twice the rate of firearm-related
    homicides as the U.S. (21.7/100,000 vs. 10/7/100,000 in 2002)14 A national initiative, which
    included comprehensive gun laws, strengthened local and national capacity for enforcement,
    and civic engagement was implemented in 2003 - 2004. Following implementation, a
    historical trend of increasing firearm-related violence was reversed, with the number of
    firearm deaths between 2003 and 2005 decreased by 8.8%.15

    • The correlation between firearm availability and rates of homicide is consistent across highincome
    industrialized nations: in general, where there are more firearms, there are higher
    rates of homicide overall.16 The U.S. has among the highest rates of both firearm homicide
    and private firearm ownership. In 2001 an estimated 35% of U.S. households had a firearm.17

    • Due to a military requirement, Switzerland has a high rate of household gun ownership. In a
    2000 census, 35% of Swiss households had a gun.18 While Switzerland’s age adjusted
    firearm homicide rate is low (.06/100,000 in 2007), its suicide rate (15.1/100,000 in 2007) is
    higher than the rate for the European Union (9.8) and for the U.S. (11.3), though lower than
    the rate for Finland (17.6).12,19,20

    • Overall when the proportion of households owning firearms in industrialized countries
    decreased, the proportion of firearm suicides decreased, and in most countries, the level of
    suicides decreased as well.19

    • Rates of youth violence and death are high worldwide.21 In the U.S., the youth firearm death
    rate is high relative to other countries. The death rate for all causes of firearm mortality
    (homicide, suicide, and unintentional) is higher for people under age 25 in the U.S. than the
    rate for youth in other high-income nations.12

    • In 1995, the overall firearm-related death rate among American children younger than 15
    years was nearly 12 times higher than for children in 25 other industrialized countries
    combined.22

    • Excluding firearm suicides, the rate of child suicide in the U.S. would be similar to that of
    other countries.23

    • Among all industrialized countries, more men are killed by firearms than women. However,
    women in the U.S. die from firearm injuries in a higher proportion than in most other highincome
    countries.12
    source: http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/ficap/reso.../monograph.pdf
    secretly gay

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Remember, a firearm homicide is not always firearm violence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem;
    And, firearm violence is not always a firearm homicide.

  7. #25147
    This is a perfect example of how failing to read other posts can at times turn into embarassing moments.
    And this is a perfect example of trying to make someone's post seem illegitimate by using hyperbole or bullshit. Why don't you respond with a fact based argument supported by evidence instead of saying 'you should be embarrassed?'
    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin
    Why? Because fuck you, that's why.

    Every time you have a question that begins with "Why?" that is about what other people prefer to do with their own goddamn time, come back here, and reread the first row of this post. That will ALWAYS be the answer to your question. Have a nice day.

  8. #25148
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    You are switching the discussion from "society" to "individual". A child does that as he doesn't understand the faulty process behind it. A child usually is forgiven. You aren't.
    Will expand this below.
    but... It's YOURSELF that came up with these "socioeconomical" factors... So are you telling us your theory is not valid? There aren't other socioeconomical factors that affect gun homicide ratio?
    You sure that is what you are telling us?

    Ah, this must be something on the lines of correlation doesn't mean causation.
    The country that has more gun per capita, has also more gun homicide. Nevermind though. It's a coincidence.

    Aaaand here you just topped it up my friend.
    From an individual point of view, it's your choice to be scared of not. From a societal point of view IT'S YOUR DUTY to be alarmed when in a situation as surreal as the one we're discussing now.
    Your numbers don't match. You shouldn't be up there, you should be like Canada, Australia. You aren't. You're up there past algeria and egypt. And this is NOT normal.
    Fear in this case is ABSOLUTELY rational and not only that, it's also the responsible reaction to be had.
    You have created this "society" versus "individual" red herring. The risk is the same. Fearing something that has a 0.009% risk is irrational. You are more likely to die falling down the stairs, or in an automobile accident. Do you have fears of those things, as well?

    I pointed out that there are many factors other than "gun control" that are responsible for overall firearm related violence and homicides. Comparing two countries per capita rates and saying "Gun control works!" is intellectually dishonest. You have to account for all the other possible causes if you want to establish a casual relationship. I'm not going to do it for you, if you want to make those claims, you create the basis for the argument. I pointed out a couple just to illustrate that such things exist, and that they contribute to higher rates.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    What exactly does quoting these bullet points seek to prove?

    Higher firearm ownership does not correlate to higher levels of violence. Remember, a firearm homicide is not always firearm violence.

  9. #25149
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    And this is a perfect example of trying to make someone's post seem illegitimate by using hyperbole or bullshit. Why don't you respond with a fact based argument supported by evidence instead of saying 'you should be embarrassed?'
    Five posts or so behind h8papa came up with a detailed post on why weapons in Mexico are mainly from the USA.

  10. #25150
    As soon as the American society realizes guns are as harmless as a knife, pencil, bat, sword, hammer, screwdriver while not in the hands of a moron.......this ridiculous topic will continue to be discussed based on fictitious, hyperbole arguments like calling something an "assault rifle" based solely on how it looks and not the functionality.

  11. #25151
    Quote Originally Posted by badzerath View Post
    As soon as the American society realizes guns are as harmless as a knife, pencil, bat, sword, hammer, screwdriver while not in the hands of a moron.......this ridiculous topic will continue to be discussed based on fictitious, hyperbole arguments like calling something an "assault rifle" based solely on how it looks and not the functionality.
    I agree but it's assault weapon an assault rifle is an actual thing.

  12. #25152
    Five posts or so behind h8papa came up with a detailed post on why weapons in Mexico are mainly from the USA.
    I might be missing something (feel free to point it out), but I was responding to someone making the claim that gun violence in Mexico is evidence that gun availability in neighboring countries makes policies ineffective.

    To which I countered by pointing out the assumption he's making by stating that.

    Then you came along to say 'hurhur, you should be embarrassed' instead of actually saying anything of substance to counter my statement.

    I've looked at HBpapa's posts, and he's not talking about all guns in Mexico, just the ones confiscated in gang related activity. Of which, only about 10-15% are US military issued weapons.

    He also points out that 'US military issue' does not equate to 'obtained in the US.' If our country sells another country guns, and those guns end up being stolen by/sold to criminals, that is not the same as someone coming to the US to buy a gun to take back to Mexico.

    It's quite the opposite, in fact.

    So this notion that Mexico gets most of their guns from the US is not only incorrect, it's entirely fictional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin
    Why? Because fuck you, that's why.

    Every time you have a question that begins with "Why?" that is about what other people prefer to do with their own goddamn time, come back here, and reread the first row of this post. That will ALWAYS be the answer to your question. Have a nice day.

  13. #25153
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    What exactly does quoting these bullet points seek to prove?

    Higher firearm ownership does not correlate to higher levels of violence. Remember, a firearm homicide is not always firearm violence.
    point 3? uhm

    and how can homicide be non violent? i uhm homicide = killing, no?
    Last edited by Mayhem; 2014-01-27 at 09:23 PM.
    secretly gay

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Remember, a firearm homicide is not always firearm violence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem;
    And, firearm violence is not always a firearm homicide.

  14. #25154
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    point 3? uhm
    Which is refuted by Vermont and Switzerland.

  15. #25155
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    You have created this "society" versus "individual" red herring. The risk is the same. Fearing something that has a 0.009% risk is irrational. You are more likely to die falling down the stairs, or in an automobile accident. Do you have fears of those things, as well?
    red herring my ass. How many people die each year in the USA compared to any other developed country? Yes THAT'S the issue society should be focused on.
    What a ridicolous point. What are the chances of you crashing the car for drink driving? Does that mean that shouldn't be an issue if lets say my country had an hypothetical stratospherical number of drink driving deaths compared to other developed countries? Because still it's only a small %?

    I pointed out that there are many factors other than "gun control" that are responsible for overall firearm related violence and homicides.
    and I've been asking you which ones. Question you keep dodging like the fucking matrix.
    Comparing two countries per capita rates and saying "Gun control works!" is intellectually dishonest.
    you're right. It's much more honest to talk about some random factors you have been called to specify many times and never answered. thats intellectual honesty for tinykong!
    You have to account for all the other possible causes if you want to establish a casual relationship. I'm not going to do it for you
    no, you're not, we can clearly see that.
    No problem, I can do it for you. What factors do you think affect these absolutely ridiculous numbers? Economy? Social and economical divisions? Ethnic differences and tensions perhaps? Lack of proper education? of social support? what is it that makes the usa socioeconomically unique?
    if you want to make those claims, you create the basis for the argument. I pointed out a couple just to illustrate that such things exist, and that they contribute to higher rates.
    they contribute. That's true. You know what else contribute? Having an absolutely unregulated system where you can buy unchecked, where the CORPORATIONS behind the guns industry have created such a cultural background between the masses to back them up that they sell fucking guns for KIDS in PINK and people fucking BUY them, having a gun per capita DOUBLE the one of Switzerland, the closest developed nation to follow after YEMEN.
    This also contribute. Massively. Not admitting it REALLY is intellectual dishonesty.
    Higher firearm ownership does not correlate to higher levels of violence. Remember, a firearm homicide is not always firearm violence.
    Not with violence. thats silly. nice juggling though. you tried.
    It may correlate to higher firearm homicides though.
    And this you have to explain cause its cryptic.
    "A firearm homicide is not always firearm violence"?!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Which is refuted by Vermont and Switzerland.
    Switzerland has half the guns per capita you have and MUCH better education about it. What was your point again?

  16. #25156
    Pandaren Monk PRE 9-11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Switzerland has half the guns per capita you have and MUCH better education about it. What was your point again?
    And much tighter firearm regulation.
    Reasonable minds can differ

  17. #25157
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Hyperbole

    Dear Hyberbole users.


    Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.




    Please stop. Pro-Gun and Anti-Gun. Thank you and godspeed to us all.
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  18. #25158
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Which is refuted by Vermont and Switzerland.
    this study is refuted? what?

    switzerland has less homicides probably because the main reason they have that high of gun ownership is because they are required by military and therefor are trained to handle, still they have a significant higher suicide rate and out of the developed nations switzerland ranks top 4 in homicide rate... yeah, thats a refute

    so that leaves us with vermont, vermont refutes everything
    secretly gay

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Remember, a firearm homicide is not always firearm violence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem;
    And, firearm violence is not always a firearm homicide.

  19. #25159
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    red herring my ass. How many people die each year in the USA compared to any other developed country? Yes THAT'S the issue society should be focused on.
    What a ridicolous point. What are the chances of you crashing the car for drink driving? Does that mean that shouldn't be an issue if lets say my country had an hypothetical stratospherical number of drink driving deaths compared to other developed countries? Because still it's only a small %?
    Do you actually have an argument to present?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    and I've been asking you which ones. Question you keep dodging like the fucking matrix.
    you're right. It's much more honest to talk about some random factors you have been called to specify many times and never answered. thats intellectual honesty for tinykong! no, you're not, we can clearly see that.
    As I've said already, I don't know what they are and have no interest in formulating a list for you. You're making the correlation, you build it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    No problem, I can do it for you. What factors do you think affect these absolutely ridiculous numbers? Economy? Social and economical divisions? Ethnic differences and tensions perhaps? Lack of proper education? of social support? what is it that makes the usa socioeconomically unique? they contribute. That's true. You know what else contribute? Having an absolutely unregulated system where you can buy unchecked, where the CORPORATIONS behind the guns industry have created such a cultural background between the masses to back them up that they sell fucking guns for KIDS in PINK and people fucking BUY them, having a gun per capita DOUBLE the one of Switzerland, the closest developed nation to follow after YEMEN.
    This also contribute. Massively. Not admitting it REALLY is intellectual dishonesty.
    I stopped reading when you put on your tin foil hat and started spouting conspiracy theories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Not with violence. thats silly. nice juggling though. you tried.
    It may correlate to higher firearm homicides though.
    And this you have to explain cause its cryptic.
    "A firearm homicide is not always firearm violence"?!
    There is no juggling here, just your inability to understand the difference between firearm violence and a firearm homicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Switzerland has half the guns per capita you have and MUCH better education about it. What was your point again?
    That there is no causal relationship established between higher gun ownership rates per capita and higher firearm violence/crime.
    Last edited by Tinykong; 2014-01-27 at 09:34 PM.

  20. #25160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    this study is refuted? what?

    switzerland has less homicides probably because the main reason they have that high of gun ownership is because they are required by military and therefor are trained to handle, still they have a significant higher suicide rate and out of the developed nations switzerland ranks top 4 in homicide rate... yeah, thats a refute

    so that leaves us with vermont, vermont refutes everything
    The reason why Switzerlands gun violence figures are a lot lower than those in the US is, how they have gun regulation which would be reason for some gun activists in the US to call out a civil war over gun ownership.

    Background checks? CHECK
    Track records on when the gun is used? CHECK
    Track records on how much ammo is used? CHECK

    And I believe they even have to attend some class to obtain the license in the first place.

    All things you cannot come up with in the US, because it would violate their freedom...
    Individual freedom values higher in the US than the freedom of the society as a whole..

    We may see that as asocial, but that's how the game is played in the US.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

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