Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Eroginous]

And the argument against limiting clip sizes is therefore.... ?

1. They aren't called clips. They're called Magazines.

2. I don't think I've ever argued against magazine size restrictions. We've had a 10 round limit in my state for most of my life and it doesn't really matter much. What's the difference between one 20 round magazine and two 10 round magazines?

[Mayhem]

Takes issue with my intentional use of emo words, but not his own.

i take issue that you accuse me of using the word for 'emo' reasons, while you yourself use the word

I've repeatedly stated that proficiency matters a lot more with guns. Besides that, guns have inherent limitations not present in other weapons. That's one of the reasons why proficiency matters so much more. And no, I've never said that without proficiency, guns are useless. Are they much less useful? Sure. But completely useless? Nope.

compared to the limitations of other weapons only in a few situations are the limitations of guns even a thing to talk about

what do you think how many people holmes could´ve killed when he was only equiped with a knife?

There are major arteries running through every part of the body. On top of that, most of your major vital organs are in the center of the body. It doesn't take much force to penetrate skin and even the most glancing of blows with a knife can be fatal.

I'd happily wager the average person's ability to effectively use a knife against another person with very little experience or proficiency.

you still ignore that you have to be at close range with a knife to do any serious harm whatsoever, and ignore that the harm that would happen at the same range but with a gun needs less proficiency while having more impact

Bones break rather easily, it can take as little as 25lbs of pressure to fracture a bone.

nitpicking much? it depends on the weapon and the bone, but sure it can fracture a bone, will this kill you? probably not

Actually, people survive being shot in the head. Gabriel Giffords is one of them.

and people survive being stabbed, people survive being hit by a truck, people survive dropping from a plane, we´re talking about proficiency, right? glad you agree

A knife is a bladed weapon... even if you're flailing wildly you're going to considerable damage to anyone within arms reach.

probably not killing them, also just ignore the scenario given, because

It really just depends on what you're using. A hammer is probably one of the more effective blunt weapons and you just have to swing in an arc that hits something. Obviously something big like a sledgehammer is going to take a lot more strength and skill to use, but there's a plethora of different blunt items one could use as a weapon between a hammer and a sledge hammer.

absolutely right and dispite a knife, they aren´t bladed, so the victim even has greater chances of defending against

You still have:

1. Limited ammunition.

2. Possible mechanical problems.

3. To be able to hit your target.

You ever watch someone empty a magazine and miss every single shot on an 8'11" target @ 5 yards? I have.

the first two points have nothing to do with proficiency, proficiency is about the abilities of the human, not of the weapon

being able to hit your target is essential for every weapon o_O, though if it´s a drywall between you and your victim the gun has less limits... funny how that works

to be able to do serious damage to your victim while in close range, all you have to do with a gun is point at them, from anywhere to do enough damage to turn the odds in your favor, with a knife or blunt weapon you need to swing/lunge it or already have the upper hand

yes, being more proficient at using any weapon will make it easier for you to do greater damage, still having no proficiency at all chances of you doing at least equal but mostly more damage are greater with a gun than a knife or blunt weapon

and the guy you´ve watched probably can´t cut a steak

[TZucchini]

Adam Lanza was a proficient shooter, with children for targets. Children too young to even grasp what was about to happen to them, let alone respond with the appropriate fight or flight reaction. That, and the fact that he brought hundreds of rounds of ammunition preloaded into magazines for his AR15, which he preemptively reloaded before they were empty.

Adam Lanza was a completely different caliber (sry for pun) of shooter than James Holmes. Their differences in proficiency yielded wildly different results, again making the case for why proficiency matters most with a firearm.

I've never heard or seen any type of proficiency breakdown comparison between Lanza and Holmes. So claiming that Lanza was a "completely different caliber" is really just speculation. Unless you have something you'd like to share with the rest of us.

Nope. Please tell me how shooting someone center mass is going to be any less difficult whether they are standing in a crowd or standing alone. In order for a bullet to be effective, it has to hit a major artery or vital organ. Which means you either have to get lucky with your shot or you have to intentionally aim for a major artery or vital organ.

I really don't understand why you're so hellbent of defending this statement. It's blatantly obvious to everyone that firing into a crowd and killing someone requires much less proficiency than killing someone standing alone.

In order to kill your target, you first have to hit it. If your target is bigger, you're more likely to hit it.

Just because you're shooting into a crowd of people doesn't mean the bullet is going to magically find a vital organ or a major artery.

Who said anything about magic? Someone that has virtually no proficiency is going to be bad at aiming. Missed your actual target? That's OK. There's several more standing next to it.

[Ghostpanther]

If you dont like guns, get the fuck out of the USA. Because your not taking them. Ever.

Hehe. This is true. I am really not concerned about that at all. This is something which is valued by too many Americans as one of the rights under the Constitution. The sooner the gun control crowd accept that, the sooner we can get some reasonable gun control laws working.

[lockedout]

The sooner the gun control crowd accept that, the sooner we can get some reasonable gun control laws working.

I think there is already to many laws regarding gun control. Enforce existing laws instead of slowly stripping away rights. Mag capacity assault weapon ban etc. all useless laws made up by people who have 0 knowledge on firearms.

[Rukentuts]

1. They aren't called clips. They're called Magazines.

2. I don't think I've ever argued against magazine size restrictions. We've had a 10 round limit in my state for most of my life and it doesn't really matter much. What's the difference between one 20 round magazine and two 10 round magazines?

The latest Washington Uni mass shooting a couple weeks ago was a great example on why it mattered. The assailant was maced and tackled while reloading.

[ugotownd]

The latest Washington Uni mass shooting a couple weeks ago was a great example on why it mattered. The assailant was maced and tackled while reloading.

Funny since it was a shotgun which has no magazine therefore your whole point is useless.

[Eroginous]

The latest Washington Uni mass shooting a couple weeks ago was a great example on why it mattered. The assailant was maced and tackled while reloading.

Tackled while reloading... a shotgun. You do understand the difference between this and this, right?

Swapping a magazine vs loading several single shells one at a time. An experienced shooter might be able to to both fairly quickly, but an inexperienced shooter trying to dig shotgun shells out of his pockets, fumbling them into the tube, probably opens himself up to be disarmed. Another point for proficiency.

[Rukentuts]

Tackled while reloading... a shotgun. You do understand the difference between this and this, right?

You do understand the principle of vulnerability while reloading, right?

[Mayhem]

Another point for proficiency.

proficiency is pretty much discribing everything for you, isn´t it? because at this point, it´s meaning is "to use another weapon instead" o_O we all know your trouble with dictionaries but at some point you just have to go by the definition agreed on by the majority or give us your definition of words

[Eroginous]

You do understand the principle of vulnerability while reloading, right?

So you're saying that shotguns have the same vulnerability while reloading as an AR15 (or some other magazine fed firearm)?

proficiency is pretty much discribing everything for you, isn´t it? because at this point, it´s meaning is "to use another weapon instead" o_O we all know your trouble with dictionaries but at some point you just have to go by the definition agreed on by the majority or give us your definition of words

Proficiency definition.

Nope, I just understand the difference between stabbing/hitting someone and operating a machine (firearm), with the intent to inflict harm. Proficiency extends to more than just the ability to aim a gun and pull the trigger. You have to know how to load the weapon, ready the weapon for firing, how to troubleshoot the weapon if it's not functioning properly, and how to compensate for distance/movement/kickback while shooting. All of these things make up a persons potential proficiency with a firearm.

There's a fundamental difference between picking up a sharp/blunt item and stabbing/striking someone with it, and picking up a firearm and operating it. This myth that you just pickup a firearm, point it, pull the trigger, and people fall over dead, is what I'm trying to dispel. That's the myth that the anti gun side keeps trying to propagate with these gun control measures.

[belfpala]

So you're saying that shotguns have the same vulnerability while reloading as an AR15 (or some other magazine fed firearm)?

I am astounded that you're so willfully ignoring the point.

Actually, no I'm not. Keep at it.

[Svifnymr]

I am astounded that you're so willfully ignoring the point.

Actually, no I'm not. Keep at it.

Do you understand the difference between a tube-fed shotgun and it's loading properties (and the time involved) and changing magazines in an ar15? You used the shotgun as an example to illustrate what can happen during reloading in reference to why magazine limits matter, while ignoring that fishing single shells from a pocket and loading one at a time is vastly different in time span, that is the counterpoint to your example.

It's literally a few minutes vs a few seconds in most cases of the two guns.

[Eroginous]

I am astounded that you're so willfully ignoring the point.

Actually, no I'm not. Keep at it.

I wasn't even quoting or responding to you, so there's that.

[belfpala]

I wasn't even quoting or responding to you, so there's that.

You were responding to a line of discussion I restarted last night.

Do you understand the difference between a tube-fed shotgun and it's loading properties (and the time involved) and changing magazines in an ar15? You used the shotgun as an example to illustrate what can happen during reloading in reference to why magazine limits matter...

I did no such thing. Ruk brought up that example. I'm glad you agree that magazine limits matter, though.

[Eroginous]

You were responding to a line of discussion I restarted last night.

In a different post, sure.

But the post you quoted was a response to Rukentuts, not you. Not sure why you would assume I was even talking to you.

[belfpala]

In a different post, sure... Not sure why you would assume I was even talking to you.

I'm both amused and dismayed that you're actually being serious.

You've yet to address the actual thing, which was that having to reload more often creates a vulnerability in an assailant.

[Eroginous]

You've yet to address the actual thing, which was that having to reload more often creates a vulnerability in an assailant.

Again, I was talking to Rukentuts, not you. In that post, I specifically asked him a question.

Now I'm awaiting his response.

[Mayhem]

In a different post, sure.

But the post you quoted was a response to Rukentuts, not you. Not sure why you would assume I was even talking to you.

you messed up your quotes, rukentuts never wrote that

- - - Updated - - -

So you're saying that shotguns have the same vulnerability while reloading as an AR15 (or some other magazine fed firearm)?



Proficiency definition.

Nope, I just understand the difference between stabbing/hitting someone and operating a machine (firearm), with the intent to inflict harm. Proficiency extends to more than just the ability to aim a gun and pull the trigger. You have to know how to load the weapon, ready the weapon for firing, how to troubleshoot the weapon if it's not functioning properly, and how to compensate for distance/movement/kickback while shooting. All of these things make up a persons potential proficiency with a firearm.

There's a fundamental difference between picking up a sharp/blunt item and stabbing/striking someone with it, and picking up a firearm and operating it. This myth that you just pickup a firearm, point it, pull the trigger, and people fall over dead, is what I'm trying to dispel. That's the myth that the anti gun side keeps trying to propagate with these gun control measures.

your link brings me to a google search...

the thing though is, you were talking about killing someone, and you really don´t need much proficiency for doing that with a gun, the odds are always in your favor, hence why people use them disproportionaly more often than any other weapon when commiting homicides

you want to paint them as something they just don´t are, as machines you need to take courses to operate

no, all you have to do is train to hit your target, like with every other weapon

the problem here is, with sharp or blunt weapons the victim has better chances of surviving or escaping, so you need to be more proficient to accomplish it

you can tell me all day long how a knife can do equal damage as a gun, when that´s not the point at all, but i already explained it and you keep ignoring it, as per usual

[Oktoberfest]

If you dont like guns, get the fuck out of the USA. Because your not taking them. Ever.

I don't think responses like this are very helpful.

To be honest, I dont give a shit anymore. They want the guns and they are not getting the guns. Line drawn in sand. If they dont like it they can fucking move to another country. Or they can feel free to try and come get them. They will run out of grabbers within the first day. Which will then lead to them moving to another country anyways and not by choice. So they might as well spare themselves the worry and just leave now.