Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Tinykong]

Unless he was holding it in a manner consistent with an active shooter, there was no reason for police to shoot him.

It's pretty plausible that his guy could have been holding it while looking at it, heard the police yelling, and turned to look at them, prompting the police to shoot and kill him presuming the weapon he was carrying was an actual firearm and not a toy.

[Mayhem]

It comes in different colors, as most things do. Whether or not the specific gun was black is impossible to tell from the video (they likely purchased their MK177 from a different walmart and probably picked the black one to make the story more appealing), but that doesn't matter either way. Unless he was holding it in a manner consistent with an active shooter, there was no reason for police to shoot him.

Also, what the guy was doing can be easily classified as disorderly conduct. In most circumstances it's a misdemeanor crime and carries a penalty of a fine and/or some jail time.

i like how you already managed to make the story so that the police had every right and the guy clearly was at fault

now i do wonder if you´d say this for everyone with a toy gun or not

[Svifnymr]

going by the video the gun in question was black... so, it was much more lifelike, also how is the guy at fault? slapped with a fine? some days in jail? for what?

It's actually fairly common for firearms to come in colors other than black. Many rifles are available in brown or green, and the tan pictured is also common. Plastic can be colored in many different ways, and a desert tan is probably more useful for low visibility in the environments most commonly encountered during "conflicts" now.

This instance, people were still walking by and stuff it says, if he was pointing the bb gun at people. I'd think Walmart security should have noticed that he didn't come in with it and that he got it from the toy department, but better safe than sorry I guess. (Well, unless you're the guy with the bb gun waving it around while on the phone.) Someone called the police, the police responded, the guy wasn't paying attention and turned on them with a gun in hand so they shot.

And of course the other case from months ago:
http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/256984...d-in-toy-aisle

Also for reference about gun colors:


- - - Updated - - -

i like how you already managed to make the story so that the police had every right and the guy clearly was at fault

now i do wonder if you´d say this for everyone with a toy gun or not

I think this is one of those situations where "everyone is wrong". Guy was on the phone while waving around a bb gun. Cops approach "dangerous man with rifle" and tell him to drop it, but instead he turns towards them, so they shoot. Meanwhile, guy with bb gun hears cops yell at him and turns to see what's going on.

[vaeevictiss]

So the ATFE has received an increase in applications. Does that also mean they've received an increase in applicants?

In other words, can a single individual file multiple applications?

I actually asked one of the inspectors this the last time i had called because yes, you can file as many as you want. He mentioned the majority was new users that had to be put into the system. Only a small percentage of that increase was due to the same individual filing multiple forms.

Now granted, he stated most of the increase is from suppressors more than anything else, mostly due to the fact that the suppressor industry has been pushing hard the past few years to make it well known that suppressors are legal in most states, and that has gotten a lot of publicity, specifically in the hunting market. However, there are still a sizable amount of machine gun, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns and AOW forms going through processing.

[TZucchini]

Svifnymr, since vaeevictiss likely won't respond, can you answer my question. (he just did. my confidence was lacking)

Can a single individual file multiple NFA applications?

[Mayhem]

I think this is one of those situations where "everyone is wrong". Guy was on the phone while waving around a bb gun. Cops approach "dangerous man with rifle" and tell him to drop it, but instead he turns towards them, so they shoot. Meanwhile, guy with bb gun hears cops yell at him and turns to see what's going on.

yeah, it´s as if he was paying attention to the phone, that sounds ridiculous i know, but people tend to do that

lesson:
what ever you do, don´t point anything remotely looking like a firearm at someone, or you´ll end up dead

o_O that´s a bit harsh punishment if you ask me

[TZucchini]

I actually asked one of the inspectors this the last time i had called because yes, you can file as many as you want.

OK. So a single individual could file a shit ton of applications. And per the ATFE, applications have increased greatly.

Therefore. That information is completely in line with what other organizations have found: fewer and fewer people are buying more and more guns.

Only a small percentage of that increase was due to the same individual filing multiple forms.

There's literally no evidence to back up that statement. Just a conversation between you and someone that may or may not have happened.

[Mayhem]

There's literally no evidence to back up that statement. Just a conversation between you and someone that may or may not have happened.

you know very well that one incident is enough to make a sound judgment about something on a federal level

[Eroginous]

i like how you already managed to make the story so that the police had every right and the guy clearly was at fault

now i do wonder if you´d say this for everyone with a toy gun or not

Clearly you haven't been reading my posts. Not only did I point out how the guy was partly responsible for his own behavior, but I also pointed out how the police were responsible for shooting a guy who didn't deserve to be shot.

You might want to go back and start with the first post I made right after the story was posted, and read them all again.

IMO, there needs to be a differentiation between a firearm that shoots projectiles via gunpowder, and BB/Airsoft guns. The orange tip law is outdated, and needs to apply to anything that isn't a "firearm" (which should be limited to gunpowder.)

The only difference is the method by which they power a projectile down their barrel, and the subsequent power of said projectile. Sure, other firearms are more powerful, but not all airguns are spring powered daisy rifles. In fact, there are air rifles that are every bit as capable of ending a life as more powerful firearms.

Because a "BB gun" and a "firearm" aren't the same thing. The only point in making a BB gun look like a SCAR or FAL is to simulate the real thing. Other than being tacticool or to use it for criminal purposes, why is this necessary? Put an orange tip on anything that isn't a regulated firearm, imo.

It's funny because here's the warning on the Gamo website I just linked, posted on their main page and every page with a 'bbgun' listed:

Warning GAMO AIRGUNS ARE NOT TOYS. GAMO AIRGUNS ARE RECOMMENDED FOR USE BY THOSE 16 YEARS OF AGE OR OLDER. ADULT SUPERVISION REQUIRED. MISUSE OR CARELESS USE MAY CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY. DO NOT BRANDISH OR DISPLAY YOUR AIRGUN IN PUBLIC. IT MAY CONFUSE PEOPLE AND IT MAY BE A CRIME. POLICE AND OTHERS MAY THINK AN AIRGUN IS A FIREARM. DO NOT CHANGE THE COLORATION OR MARKINGS TO MAKE IT LOOK MORE LIKE A FIREARM. BUYER AND USER SHOULD CONFORM TO ALL LAWS GOVERNING THE USE AND OWNERSHIP OF THEIR AIRGUN. THE PERSON HANDLING THE AIRGUN AND ANYONE NEARBY SHOULD ALWAYS WEAR PROTECTIVE EYEWEAR. READ ALL INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USING. ALWAYS USE CARE AND SHOOT SAFELY. - See more at: http://www.gamousa.com/family.aspx?f....aZfzqmzK.dpuf

Why would you paint the tips of all airguns bright orange? Then you're just making them seem like toys when they aren't.

He was being stupid by looking at something he intended to buy? He didn't bring it in with him, and opening the package and handling the thing certainly doesn't deserve jail time or a fine or being shot to death.

According to the eyewitness reports in that article, he was walking around with it and behaving in a manner that prompted people to call the police. I'm not saying the cops were justified in shooting the guy, but if he hadn't been acting stupid then they wouldn't have been there in the first place.

Yeah NYT, CNN, they're all in cahoots.

Or just misinformed. But I love it how whenever someone disagrees with your source you chalk it up to conspiracy theories.

[Svifnymr]

Svifnymr, since vaeevictiss likely won't respond, can you answer my question. (he just did. my confidence was lacking)

Can a single individual file multiple NFA applications?

Since transferable machineguns can't be made anymore, there isn't anymore than there has been since 1986.

But as he said, silencers have greatly increased in popularity. The internet has made the process more transparent than at any time in the history of the NFA, so there's a lot more folks buying as well as the folks that currently own buying more. Each item you buy is a $200 transfer tax with attendant form. Buy 5 items, pay $1000 and submit 5 forms. (Except that AOW's are $5, but you get the idea.)

- - - Updated - - -

OK. So a single individual could file a shit ton of applications. And per the ATFE, applications have increased greatly.

Therefore. That information is completely in line with what other organizations have found: fewer and fewer people are buying more and more guns.



There's literally no evidence to back up that statement. Just a conversation between you and someone that may or may not have happened.

There's no evidence in either direction, so we can't make any judgement calls. Generally though, silencer purchases are made for versaility, not just to add to the collection. For instance, my 9mm can works for my 22 also, so I only got the 1 can for 2 guns.

[Tinykong]

The only difference is the method by which they power a projectile down their barrel, and the subsequent power of said projectile. Sure, other firearms are more powerful, but not all airguns are spring powered daisy rifles.

And, imo, there needs to be a differentiation. Any air powered rifle that is capable of killing a person needs to be regulated just like any other firearm. There needs to be two categories, toys and real. Anything that is a toy isn't powerful enough to cause a serious injury, and anything that can is real and subject to regulation.

It's funny because here's the warning on the Gamo website I just linked, posted on their main page and every page with a 'bbgun' listed:

Why would you paint the tips of all airguns bright orange? Then you're just making them seem like toys when they aren't.

All airsoft/BB Guns are toys. They may be dangerous, but they are still toys. Requiring them to be marked with an orange tip would identify them as such. Considering how realistic these look, why are we not wanting to identify them as toys/immitations?

[TZucchini]

There's no evidence in either direction, so we can't make any judgement calls.

We have information gathered by the Injury Prevention Journal, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, the General Social Survey and population figures from the U.S. Census Bureau.

They're all in agreement that firearm ownership is declining.

[vaeevictiss]

OK. So a single individual could file a shit ton of applications. And per the ATFE, applications have increased greatly.

Therefore. That information is completely in line with what other organizations have found: fewer and fewer people are buying more and more guns.



There's literally no evidence to back up that statement. Just a conversation between you and someone that may or may not have happened.

You don't have to take my word for it. Call up any random state police stations around the country and they will tell you. The information they have is far more accurate than some stranger calling a random number asking if they have guns.

In the end, if that survey makes you feel better that there are less guns on the street them so be it. People familiar with the firearms industry and law enforcement know how it really is.

[TZucchini]

In the end, if that survey makes you feel better that there are less guns on the street them so be it. People familiar with the firearms industry and law enforcement know how it really is.

I don't think you're understanding correctly. There are more guns. It's just that fewer and fewer people own them. As has been confirmed by several non-partisan, independent, reputable organizations.

If you'd like to take the word of "a random guy at a random state police station," then that's your prerogative.

[Svifnymr]

We have information gathered by the Injury Prevention Journal, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, the General Social Survey and population figures from the U.S. Census Bureau.

They're all in agreement that firearm ownership is declining.

And that has nothing to do with NFA firearms, which are a fraction of the overall market. If you take the survey data at face value, does that tell you that Glocks increased sales are all to different individuals or that individuals are purchasing more than one Glock? No, it tells you nothing.

[TZucchini]

And that has nothing to do with NFA firearms, which are a fraction of the overall market.

Then why is vaeevictiss trying to use that as evidence toward soaring gun ownership numbers? Doesn't make any sense.

[Eroginous]

And, imo, there needs to be a differentiation. Any air powered rifle that is capable of killing a person needs to be regulated just like any other firearm. There needs to be two categories, toys and real. Anything that is a toy isn't powerful enough to cause a serious injury, and anything that can is real and subject to regulation.

I don't see the problem with not painting the tips of air guns orange. Even the spring powered daisy rifles can cause serious injury. A toy gun, on the other hand, can't. Airsoft guns get an orange tip because even in the most extraordinary of circumstances they are incapable of causing serious injuries. Even though they fall in the grey area of 'toys' and 'sporting goods,' they still require that someone be 18 to purchase one, much like an air rifle or a pocket knife.

All airsoft/BB Guns are toys. They may be dangerous, but they are still toys. Requiring them to be marked with an orange tip would identify them as such. Considering how realistic these look, why are we not wanting to identify them as toys/immitations?

I'm not sure if you realize this, but not even airsoft guns are considered toys. They fire a projectile, something most toy guns don't do. The only reason they aren't treated the same as airguns is because they cannot cause serious injury. They are in that grey area, like I said. Paintball markers don't have orange tips either. Personally I wouldn't want people to treat airguns like toys because they aren't toys.

Just because they aren't as powerful as a other firearms doesn't mean they are all of a sudden toys.

[vaeevictiss]

I don't think you're understanding correctly. There are more guns. It's just that fewer and fewer people own them. As has been confirmed by several non-partisan, independent, reputable organizations.

If you'd like to take the word of "a random guy at a random state police station," then that's your prerogative.

No, there are more gun owners as well. Check these out. And at least one uses that oh so scientific method of calling and asking.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...ership-On-Rise (link on page)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/se...hest-1993.aspx

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybel...rimes-plummet/


If all any of this proves us that there are more guns, then you can't trust any of it for ownership. The second study here at least was done by calling and asking and it shows that it increased. That's the problem. Calling and asking cannot be taken as scientific, flawless data. Depending on the day and who you call, you have four possible outcomes.

1. Gun owner says they have guns
2. Gun owner lies and says they do not own a gun
3. Non gun owner says they have no guns
4. Non gun owner lies and says they own guns.

The only way to get 100% factual data is to get it from state law enforcement which would be impossible to build a long term timeline due to the fact they are only allowed to legally hold on to that data for 6 months I believe it is. Even the ATF is supposed to destroy them after 2 years. I'm not even sure that data can be public record.

So while calling and asking people if they own them is all we really have, it can in no way be taken as gospel, for the primary fact that many gun owners don't want to tell random people they don't know that they have guns.

[Tinykong]

I don't see the problem with not painting the tips of air guns orange. Even the spring powered daisy rifles can cause serious injury. A toy gun, on the other hand, can't. Airsoft guns get an orange tip because even in the most extraordinary of circumstances they are incapable of causing serious injuries. Even though they fall in the grey area of 'toys' and 'sporting goods,' they still require that someone be 18 to purchase one, much like an air rifle or a pocket knife.

The orange tip is to identify, at a quick glance, that said item is not a real gun. The only reason for not wanting it on there is because you want to be tacti-cool, which is irrelevant.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but not even airsoft guns are considered toys. They fire a projectile, something most toy guns don't do. The only reason they aren't treated the same as airguns is because they cannot cause serious injury. They are in that grey area, like I said. Paintball markers don't have orange tips either. Personally I wouldn't want people to treat airguns like toys because they aren't toys.

People should treat anything dangerous like it's dangerous. Just because something is a toy doesn't mean it's harmless.

Just because they aren't as powerful as a other firearms doesn't mean they are all of a sudden toys.

They are toys because they are imitation devices intended to mimic the functionality of a real firearm. Again, the only reason not to indicate a BB gun, or airsoft gun or paint marker with an orange tip is because people want to be tacti-cool.

[vaeevictiss]

I don't see the problem with not painting the tips of air guns orange. Even the spring powered daisy rifles can cause serious injury. A toy gun, on the other hand, can't. Airsoft guns get an orange tip because even in the most extraordinary of circumstances they are incapable of causing serious injuries. Even though they fall in the grey area of 'toys' and 'sporting goods,' they still require that someone be 18 to purchase one, much like an air rifle or a pocket knife.



I'm not sure if you realize this, but not even airsoft guns are considered toys. They fire a projectile, something most toy guns don't do. The only reason they aren't treated the same as airguns is because they cannot cause serious injury. They are in that grey area, like I said. Paintball markers don't have orange tips either. Personally I wouldn't want people to treat airguns like toys because they aren't toys.

Just because they aren't as powerful as a other firearms doesn't mean they are all of a sudden toys.

The other crazy thing is that potato guns aren't either lol. I built a potato gun that has interchangeable barrels. I have a 1" diameter barrel that I can fire 1" steel ball bearings. I put one through the side of a god damn steel dumpster. Just think what that would do to a person. I'm not advocating for it to be classified as a firearm, I'm just surprised it's not.

- - - Updated - - -

Then why is vaeevictiss trying to use that as evidence toward soaring gun ownership numbers? Doesn't make any sense.

Because it shows that items with numerous restrictions and hoops to jump through to acquire are sharply increasing. If that's the case, you really think items with next to no restrictions are on the decline.