Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[cubby]

Like I said earlier, people will obey laws they feel are just and right. That is one of the reasons why prohibition laws dont work. If a person doesnt feel the law is just and they dont think they will get caught, you will have low compliance.

You need something more than your word to make a statement like that and have anyone else believe it. I mean, personally, I follow many laws I feel to be wrong and unjust - but they are the law, and we have to follow them if society is to work.

[TZucchini]

So, safe storage laws can only be enforced when the police are responding to other crimes. Which is exactly what I said. Thanks for confirming you can't read.

Police and rescue get called to a house because a child is choking and can't breath.

Upon arrival, the police notice several firearms are stored illegally. They arrest the homeowner.

Boom. No crime committed. Law enforced.

You're wrong, Tiny. I'm right. You can go ahead and admit it now. (waiiiiiiting......)

[Tinykong]

There's lots of laws that work like this. And they're all enforceable.

If the police knock on the door of a house with no probable cause to enter, can they enter into the residence, search for firearms and charge the gun owner with violating a self storage law if they find them stored illegally?

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Police and rescue get called to a house because a child is choking and can't breath.

Upon arrival, the police notice several firearms are stored illegally. They arrest the homeowner.

Boom. No crime committed. Law enforced.

You're wrong, Tiny. I'm right. You can go ahead and admit it now. (waiiiiiiting......)

Again, all you've proven is that you can't fucking read.

[cubby]

So, safe storage laws can only be enforced when the police are responding to other crimes. Which is exactly what I said. Thanks for confirming you can't read.

No, that is not correct. The police can be at your house for an incident unrelated to a crime, and then see the unsafe storage law being broken. Domestic dispute is a perfect example. Noise violation is another.

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If the police knock on the door of a house with no probable cause to enter, can they enter into the residence, search for firearms and charge the gun owner with violating a self storage law if they find them stored illegally?

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Again, all you've proven is that you can't fucking read.

Dude, you're wrong on this issue. Let it go.

[TZucchini]

If the police knock on the door of a house with no probable cause to enter, can they enter into the residence, search for firearms and charge the gun owner with violating a self storage law if they find them stored illegally?

All police need to enter a home is consent. If they find illegally stored firearms, then yes, they can arrest them.

Again, all you've proven is that you can't fucking read.

Lol. You get so angry when you're blatantly wrong.

[Tinykong]

No, that is not correct. The police can be at your house for an incident unrelated to a crime, and then see the unsafe storage law being broken. Domestic dispute is a perfect example. Noise violation is another.

The police respond to reports of crimes. Noise violations and domestic disturbances are crimes. You know, what police respond to.

Dude, you're wrong on this issue. Let it go.

Can the police enter into a residence to enforce the safe storage law??

[cubby]

All police need to enter a home is consent. If they find illegally stored firearms, then yes, they can arrest them.

This, right here, is 100% correct. (look, no one is happy admitting that PRE 9-11 is right, ok? - j/k pre ).

[Tinykong]

All police need to enter a home is consent. If they find illegally stored firearms, then yes, they can arrest them.

Or probable cause.

Without having either of those things, they can't enforce the law. Which makes it?

Unenforceable.

[petej0]

So all these "law-abiding gun owners"....they're just obeying the laws that they agree with? How nice.

Not just gun owners, everyone. If there is no traffic on a clear straight highway people will speed. They dont fear getting caught and that since they are the only one on the road they are not hurting anyone by going faster.

Everyone has broken a law at some point, and others break them more often then you would think. The lack of real enforcement is enough to keep people from obeying.

And prohibition laws don't work because they're generally prohibiting addictive substances.

Generally, not all.

There's lots of laws that work like this. And they're all enforceable.

They are enforceable only if caught for another crime. Seatbelt laws are a perfect example. For the longest time in some states not wearing a seat belt was a secondary offense. Meaning a cop could not pull you over for just not wearing a seat belt. They had to pull you over for something else.

[cubby]

The police respond to reports of crimes. Noise violations and domestic disturbances are crimes. You know, what police respond to.

That is disputable, but the investigation isn't necessarily a crime. And, PRE's point about someone choking is correct. And finally, all police need to enter a house is consent. And that can be given in a number of situations that do not involve a crime being committed.

Can the police enter into a residence to enforce the safe storage law??

Not sure (have to see how each law is written). However, you can discover the crime being committed without having another crime occurring. That was PRE's point.

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Or probable cause.

Without having either of those things, they can't enforce the law. Which makes it?

Unenforceable.

You have to let this go. You are not correct. End of discussion.

(I don't know why you're still trying to make this point)

[petej0]

You need something more than your word to make a statement like that and have anyone else believe it. I mean, personally, I follow many laws I feel to be wrong and unjust - but they are the law, and we have to follow them if society is to work.

It isnt just my word, it is human nature. There are many laws people view as scofflaws.

[Tinykong]

That is disputable, but the investigation isn't necessarily a crime. And, PRE's point about someone choking is correct. And finally, all police need to enter a house is consent. And that can be given in a number of situations that do not involve a crime being committed.

Both you and him are hung up on the word "crime." That is the probable cause reason, consent also exists. Without one or both of those things, the police cannot enforce the law.

Not sure (have to see how each law is written). However, you can discover the crime being committed without having another crime occurring. That was PRE's point.

Just answer this simple question:

Can the police enter into any domicile to enforce the safe storage law?

[cubby]

They are enforceable only if caught for another crime. Seatbelt laws are a perfect example. For the longest time in some states not wearing a seat belt was a secondary offense. Meaning a cop could not pull you over for just not wearing a seat belt. They had to pull you over for something else.

Secondary offenses are a different situation. Safe storage laws are, to my knowledge, not in this category. You can be arrested and charged without having violated, or been investigated for, any other crime.

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Both you and him are hung up on the word "crime." That is the probable cause reason, consent also exists. Without one or both of those things, the police cannot enforce the law.

No, we're not the ones hung up here. You are not grasping the point any more, and I'm starting to wonder if you are just being obtuse for it's sake alone.

Just answer this simple question:

Can the police enter into any domicile to enforce the safe storage law?

Yes.

[TZucchini]

Or probable cause.

Without having either of those things, they can't enforce the law. Which makes it?

Unenforceable.

Just so everyone can see this, we've gone from:

"Safe storage laws can only be enforced when the police are responding to other crimes. Therefore it's unenforceable."

"Safe storage laws can be enforced through consent, probably cause, or while responding to other crimes. Therefore it's unenforceable."


If that isn't a huuuuge goal post shift, I don't know what is.

[Tinykong]

You have to let this go. You are not correct. End of discussion.

(I don't know why you're still trying to make this point)

You just don't get it.

The police can't enforce the law without other crimes being committed or by gaining access into a residence for unrelated reasons. That's the definition of unenforceable.

You can't enforce the law on it's own, it requires other things to happen in order to be enforced. Why is this so hard to understand? FFS.

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Just so everyone can see this, we've gone from:

"Safe storage laws can only be enforced when the police are responding to other crimes. Therefore it's unenforceable."

"Safe storage laws can be enforced through consent, probably cause, or while responding to other crimes. Therefore it's unenforceable."

If that isn't a huuuuge goal post shift, I don't know what is.

It's been the same all along, you've just been doing the typical PRE-911 brand of dodging and dancing that we've come to expect.

Safe storage laws are unenforceable on their own. That's it. Try to read it this time instead of jerking your knee.

[petej0]

Not sure (have to see how each law is written). However, you can discover the crime being committed without having another crime occurring. That was PRE's point.

Yes, but they need to have a reason to show up at your house. Which is my point. The vast majority of people dont get a visit to their house by the police.

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Secondary offenses are a different situation. Safe storage laws are, to my knowledge, not in this category. You can be arrested and charged without having violated, or been investigated for, any other crime.

But they need a reason to come to your house, much like they need to have a reason to pull you over. So it is in a way a secondary offense.

[cubby]

You just don't get it.

The police can't enforce the law without other crimes being committed or by gaining access into a residence for unrelated reasons. That's the definition of unenforceable.

You can't enforce the law on it's own, it requires other things to happen in order to be enforced. Why is this so hard to understand? FFS.

You are now moving the goalposts. If you can't admit you're wrong, then why bother having a conversation with anyone?

(the highlighted parts are what you just now changed in your argument.

It's been the same all along, you've just been doing the typical PRE-911 brand of dodging and dancing that we've come to expect.

Safe storage laws are unenforceable on their own. That's it. Try to read it this time instead of jerking your knee.

No, they are enforceable all on their own. Just like speeding, and murder, and all the other crimes. You just don't understand the conversation you are having.

[Tinykong]

The best part of this is, we still haven't seen any actual incidences of people being charged with this as a primary crime.

We just have PRE-911's hypothetical.

[cubby]

Yes, but they need to have a reason to show up at your house. Which is my point. The vast majority of people dont get a visit to their house by the police.

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But they need a reason to come to your house, much like they need to have a reason to pull you over. So it is in a way a secondary offense.

Sorry, but no. The reason they are at your house can be for reasons other than another crime being committed. TinyKong tried to make this argument, failed, and then changed the parameters. Which is just childish chickenshit.

Don't do the same.

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The best part of this is, we still haven't seen any actual incidences of people being charged with this as a primary crime.

We just have PRE-911's hypothetical.

No, the best part is you are abandoning logic and reasoning to score petty verbal points on the interwebs.

[petej0]

No, they are enforceable all on their own. Just like speeding, and murder, and all the other crimes. You just don't understand the conversation you are having.

The police can not go to your house and search for un stored weapons. They cant knock on your door and say "we are here to check for unsecured firearms, let us in." Because of that most people will not comply.