Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Wells]

I know, let's just ban everything that is not absolutely NEEDED (or dangerous). So much for WoW, the interwebs, alcohol, cheeseburgers, sugar, etc.

Comparing wow to fire powered weapons doesn't do your side much good.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 12:26 AM ----------

Polls show a majority of Americans against an AWB so we just need to keep cool.

For a group that has your argument untouchably enshrined in the Constitution, you are a nervous bunch about this stuff.

[GreatOak]

Comparing wow to fire powered weapons doesn't do your side much good.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 12:26 AM ----------


For a group that has your argument untouchably enshrined in the Constitution, you are a nervous bunch about this stuff.

I'm worried because our government doesn't care about the constitution, especially the executive.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I'm worried because our government doesn't care about the constitution, especially the executive.

Every single amendment in the constitution and bill of rights has provisions and exceptions (e.g. First amendment doesn't protect your right to hate speech or conspiring against the government) and most believe in the right to bear arms... just not the unchecked and unrestricted right to bear arms.

[GreatOak]

Every single amendment in the constitution and bill of rights has provisions and exceptions (e.g. First amendment doesn't protect your right to hate speech or conspiring against the government) and most believe in the right to bear arms... just not the unchecked and unrestricted right to bear arms.

Good thing that's not the case then eh?
Furthermore, "bans" aren't appealing to most Americans, especially when there are already so many guns in circulation for criminals to get. We also don't want so much red tape that it takes forever to get a gun. If you're a normal, law-abiding citizen you should be able to get a gun in under a week after a short waiting period, so long as it isn't fully-automatic.

[Wells]

I'm worried because our government doesn't care about the constitution, especially the executive.

Oh please. The Supreme Court just expanded your gun rights even further.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 12:52 AM ----------

Frankly, birthers could learn lessons on paranoia from the gun lobby and its advocates.

[Sunseeker]

I'm worried because our government doesn't care about the constitution, especially the executive.

Please, you can't name a single Right that's been infringed that wasn't wholly supported by both sides.

Oh you can cry "But the President was the one who suggested it!"...but at least 51% of Congress supported it. Oh you can cry "But the President shouldn't have approved it!" which would ironically mean you're against the president carrying out the will of the people through their representatives. The IRONY!

Any Constitutional infringment came fully supported by both sides of the aisle. From the Patriot Act to SOPA, the NDAA and more, these all had across-the-aisle support.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Good thing that's not the case then eh?
Furthermore, "bans" aren't appealing to most Americans, especially when there are already so many guns in circulation for criminals to get. We also don't want so much red tape that it takes forever to get a gun. If you're a normal, law-abiding citizen you should be able to get a gun in under a week after a short waiting period, so long as it isn't fully-automatic.

The degrees of restriction are what is being debated right now. I had to get a comprehensive background check for a job I took recently and that took about 2 weeks total. I don't really understand why any law abiding citizen would need a gun in under two weeks unless their lack of preparation and forethought were due to a knee-jerk reaction of fear and paranoia.

[Sunseeker]

The degrees of restriction are what is being debated right now. I had to get a comprehensive background check for a job I took recently and that took about 2 weeks total. I don't really understand why any law abiding citizen would need a gun in under two weeks unless their lack of preparation and forethought were due to a knee-jerk reaction of fear and paranoia.

Exactly, if you NEED A GUN RIGHT $%@*&^#@ NOW!!!! chances are you probably shouldn't have that gun. If you know how to use one and need one to say...go hunting next week with your buddy, I'm certain he'll let you borrow a gun.

[GreatOak]

Please, you can't name a single Right that's been infringed that wasn't wholly supported by both sides.

Oh you can cry "But the President was the one who suggested it!"...but at least 51% of Congress supported it. Oh you can cry "But the President shouldn't have approved it!" which would ironically mean you're against the president carrying out the will of the people through their representatives. The IRONY!

Any Constitutional infringment came fully supported by both sides of the aisle. From the Patriot Act to SOPA, the NDAA and more, these all had across-the-aisle support.

Where did I mention that they weren't?

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 01:22 AM ----------

Oh please. The Supreme Court just expanded your gun rights even further.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 12:52 AM ----------

Frankly, birthers could learn lessons on paranoia from the gun lobby and its advocates.

Sure, but that doesn't stop the gun-grabbers. Too many people hide under the guise of "reasonable" gun-control when they want to outright prohibit certain weapons that shouldn't be prohibited. Myself, and most other gun owners support actual sensible gun control. I'm sure you know nearly 80% of NRA Members want background checks on all weapon purchases.

[Deleted]

We also don't want so much red tape that it takes forever to get a gun. If you're a normal, law-abiding citizen you should be able to get a gun in under a week after a short waiting period, so long as it isn't fully-automatic.

You also don't want innocent people to be killed. Which is more important ?

[GreatOak]

The degrees of restriction are what is being debated right now. I had to get a comprehensive background check for a job I took recently and that took about 2 weeks total. I don't really understand why any law abiding citizen would need a gun in under two weeks unless their lack of preparation and forethought were due to a knee-jerk reaction of fear and paranoia.

What is the difference between one week and two? I don't really care, but one week would still stop crimes of passion and the like.

I just don't want to end up like Australia where there is so much red tape that nobody can practically get a gun. You need to be in a club to get watered-down pistols that aren't capable for self-defense. You can't get semi-autos of any sort, and the guns you can get take ages to acquire.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 01:25 AM ----------

You also don't want innocent people to be killed. Which is more important ?

Innocent people will be killed regardless. You can't guarantee safety. Our rights are to be respected. There is no asterisk in the second amendment.

[Deleted]

Innocent people will be killed regardless. You can't guarantee safety.

You can't guarantee safety but you could at least guarantee that some crazy cannot shoot up a whole room in under a minute. Are we really going to argue that this would have happened without guns ?

There is no asterisk in the second amendment.

Oh. Well then, I guess I'll stock up on fully automatic weapons since apparently the 2nd amendment knows no bending.

[Wells]

Sure, but that doesn't stop the gun-grabbers.

Yes, yes it does. Congratulations, blanket hand gun bans aren't going to happen anymore.

Too many people hide under the guise of "reasonable" gun-control when they want to outright prohibit certain weapons that shouldn't be prohibited. Myself, and most other gun owners support actual sensible gun control. I'm sure you know nearly 80% of NRA Members want background checks on all weapon purchases.

You don't get to arbitrarily determine what is reasonable and label those who don't agree as crazy.

We also don't want so much red tape that it takes forever to get a gun. If you're a normal, law-abiding citizen you should be able to get a gun in under a week after a short waiting period, so long as it isn't fully-automatic.

Why? Where is the second amendment is a waiting period defined? If a full background check takes 2 weeks the waiting period should be enough for that.

Innocent people will be killed regardless. You can't guarantee safety. Our rights are to be respected. There is no asterisk in the second amendment.

There's an asterisk on every amendment. That asterisk is public safety.

Unless you think the second amendment means you should be an RPG.

[GreatOak]

You can't guarantee safety but you could at least guarantee that some crazy cannot shoot up a whole room in under a minute. Are we really going to argue that this would have happened without guns ?

No, you can't.

Oh. Well then, I guess I'll stock up on fully automatic weapons since apparently the 2nd amendment knows no bending.

The intent of the second amendment is for the people to possess arms (individual arms/firearms) equal to the military. I say we've compromised enough already in prohibiting fully-automatic weapons. I don't mean to go down the slippery slope, but a well-regulated militia cannot exist solely with a bunch of bolt-actions. Semi-Autos are under protection according to the supreme court.

[Wells]

The intent of the second amendment is for the people to possess arms (individual arms/firearms) equal to the military

Where is the second amendment does it say this?

And how would this even be possible? I mean even if it were legal you wouldn't have the financial ability to do this.

[GreatOak]

Yes, yes it does. Congratulations, blanket hand gun bans aren't going to happen anymore.

The Heller case also protects "Assault Weapons" under common use. As you can see the grabbers are still in full force.

You don't get to arbitrarily determine what is reasonable and label those who don't agree as crazy.

It's not arbitrary. They are protected, and don't fall under mainstream opinion.

Why? Where is the second amendment is a waiting period defined? If a full background check takes 2 weeks the waiting period should be enough for that.

Doesn't really matter as long as the waiting period isn't ridiculously long (months or more)

There's an asterisk on every amendment. That asterisk is public safety.

What is safe for one is not safe for another. Who decides what public safety should entail? I (and nearly everyone else) think the state's role is to protect your property in this situation, and in doing so it protects your freedom to protect yourself, for you are your own property. Should we be like Britain and limit "hate speech" because of public safety? We should arrest people and lock them up for trolling?

Unless you think the second amendment means you should be an RPG.

The framers were very clear that the second amendment's intended use was for small arms as noted in the Federalist and other various writings by them.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 01:43 AM ----------

Where is the second amendment does it say this?

And how would this even be possible? I mean even if it were legal you wouldn't have the financial ability to do this.

That's why full-autos cost upwards of 15,000 dollars. You can read the various supreme court statements, all on public record. Also read the various works done by the framers.

[Wells]

The Heller case also protects "Assault Weapons" under common use. As you can see the grabbers are still in full force.

This is highly arguable. Heller protects weapons that have "common use" for the purpose of self defense. Not hard to argue that an AK 47 doesn't fall under that.

It's not arbitrary. They are protected, and don't fall under mainstream opinion.

This is what is known as an appeal to popularity.

What is safe for one is not safe for another. Who decides what public safety should entail? I (and nearly everyone else) think the state's role is to protect your property in this situation, and in doing so it protects your freedom to protect yourself, for you are your own property. Should we be like Britain and limit "hate speech" because of public safety? We should arrest people and lock them up for trolling?

You're going off on a red herring. We limit rights all the time for public safety. The government and the courts determine how we do so. Your 2nd amendment rights are not unlimited just like every other right.

The framers were very clear that the second amendment's intended use was for small arms as noted in the Federalist and other various writings by them.

The Federalist papers were just the opinions of some of the framers and do not carry legal weight.

[GreatOak]

This is highly arguable. Heller protects weapons that have "common use" for the purpose of self defense. Not hard to argue that an AK 47 doesn't fall under that.

This is what is known as an appeal to popularity.

You're going off on a red herring. We limit rights all the time for public safety. The government and the courts determine how we do so. Your 2nd amendment rights are not unlimited just like every other right.

The Federalist papers were just the opinions of some of the framers and do not carry legal weight.

AK-47s are separate from the fake term "Assault Weapon". I use "Assault Weapon" in the context of the proposed ban for the sake of discussion.

You should read Gun Fight by Adam Winkler. He's a professor at UCLA and it details the history of gun control in the USA.
As you can see he's pretty balanced on the issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeFOL...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBcioO0cwGk#t=22m00s

[breadisfunny]

Actually in Texas the only thing you have to be is age 21 and pass a background check. It's that easy. Anyone telling you otherwise is not telling you the full truth. Why when trying..and I use word trying lightly to make a point. Some(Not all) Pro Gun people will try to mock and act condensing. Its really not that difficult at all.

Every State is unique and different. Some are harder to get a weapon then most. But in this state I could go buy a shotgun its as easy as walking into a store and passing a ten minute back ground check and fitting that weapon into my car. While I am deeply flattered by you saying my posts are comical however they bend in truth not in fiction.

So I really sincerely do not know what is comical about them. I'm not talking about an AR-15 from the video. Then again this is another distraction from me seeing the entire picture. As Mitt Romney once said during the 3rd debates..attacking me is not an agenda.

how extensive are the background checks?

[Wells]

AK-47s are separate from the fake term "Assault Weapon". I use "Assault Weapon" in the context of the proposed ban for the sake of discussion.

You're kind of avoiding the point. Heller protects weapons that see common use for self defense. The weapons Feinstein wants to ban don't see that.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 02:05 AM ----------

I mean if we want to talk about reasonable though lets talk about how the gun lobby shuts down government research into gun violence.