View Poll Results: Do you Support Assault Weapons Ban?

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    2,141 61.66%
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  1. #8821
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    Also, isn't one of the main causes of the sucidal tendencies from the antidepressents due to them fixing the "lack of motivation" symptom before it fixes the "life sucks and i want to die" symptom?
    That's one cause; another is that antidepressants are incredibly, incredibly tricky since people are so individual, meaning that you do not focus on the source of the problem and the medication does not help. There are a few that do increase suicidal tendencies, but this is ultimately a minute byproduct as if there were a substantial amount of such incidents it would not have been put on the market in the first place. These warnings, therefore, are intended to make the patient aware and able to communicate potential problems with medical professionals. It's why responsible psychiatrists enforce strict oversight when trying out a particular antidepressant or another drug that has potential side effects.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 01:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaggySweetness View Post
    Then why aren't these drugs that have listed in the side effect suicidal tendencies, and have been proven to cause them pulled from the market yet?

    You can poke all you like, but the fact that you basically agreed that a certain thing shouldn't be punished because 1 in 100,000 may be "bad" makes it all worth it. It compliments my argument for our second amendment rights perfectly.
    Because there are drugs that have been pulled from the market for causing suicidal tendencies, of course. And there are those that were not pulled despite causing suicidal tendencies.
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

  2. #8822
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    That's one cause; another is that antidepressants are incredibly, incredibly tricky since people are so individual, meaning that you do not focus on the source of the problem and the medication does not help. There are a few that do increase suicidal tendencies, but this is ultimately a minute byproduct as if there were a substantial amount of such incidents it would not have been put on the market in the first place. These warnings, therefore, are intended to make the patient aware and able to communicate potential problems with medical professionals. It's why responsible psychiatrists enforce strict oversight when trying out a particular antidepressant or another drug that has potential side effects.
    You're actually gravely wrong on this subject. You should go back a page or two and watch the video I posted from Ted Talks. This is a growing recognized issue with the Medical Industry and not just here in the States. Research is not well regulated and divulged and studies of side effects of these drugs are in those unknown research studies.

    **edit**
    I'd also like to add that there is a well known issue with improper diagnosis of certain mental issues with children or young adults here in the states atleast due to an extremely poor mental health system. There are dire consequences for improper treatment. The symptoms for ADD, ADHD, and Bipolar are extremely similar however the treatment or targets of the medication are very different. The wrong prescription can cause extreme results including violent behavior or even suicidal tendencies.

    This is what a lot of people have been trying to talk about for a long time now. However, it only really becomes a discussion foot note after a mass murder involving a gun.
    Last edited by hakujinbakasama; 2013-02-01 at 12:29 AM.

  3. #8823
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    You're actually gravely wrong on this subject. You should go back a page or two and watch the video I posted from Ted Talks. This is a growing recognized issue with the Medical Industry and not just here in the States. Research is not well regulated and divulged and studies of side effects of these drugs are in those unknown research studies.
    I don't know who Ted Talks is, and do not in any way recognize his validity. If you want to use an external source, try to use one that I care about. And if you want to asset that research is not based first and foremost on discovering and removing drugs with potential lethal side effects, perhaps you should do some research on your own besides cruising through circle-jerking web blogs.
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

  4. #8824
    Quote Originally Posted by Humblemumble View Post
    This is simply not true. The ATF doesn't have the man power to conduct an inspection of every gun dealers inventory in the US every year. The requirement is for the dealership to provide an inventory to the ATF yearly, which the ATF cannot legally verify with in store checks or short notice inspections. Actually, the inspections provided by dealers to the ATF can only be reviewed, and with the current manpower of the ATF, they're only reviewed about once every decade or so.

    BTW, it was the NRA that pushed laws restricting the ATF from in store inspections or verifications. There are many, many laws currently on the books that literally tie the ATFs hand behind their back when it comes to enforcing current gun laws.
    ATFE does annual inspections on large dealers, at a minimum they do every dealer each 3 years to renew the license. The folks doing this are not law enforcement officers (not allowed to have guns), but they are ATF agents. There IS a limit that they cannot inspect more than once a year without cause, but with a proper cause they can inspect at will.

    I've DONE the inventory with them before. They match each gun to each spot in the book. You are misinformed.

  5. #8825
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    I don't know who Ted Talks is, and do not in any way recognize his validity. If you want to use an external source, try to use one that I care about. And if you want to asset that research is not based first and foremost on discovering and removing drugs with potential lethal side effects, perhaps you should do some research on your own besides cruising through circle-jerking web blogs.
    Translation: "No matter how valid your point may be, I do not know it therefore I am ignorant to it. Please agree with me or fuck off".

  6. #8826
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    ATFE does annual inspections on large dealers, at a minimum they do every dealer each 3 years to renew the license. The folks doing this are not law enforcement officers (not allowed to have guns), but they are ATF agents. There IS a limit that they cannot inspect more than once a year without cause, but with a proper cause they can inspect at will.

    I've DONE the inventory with them before. They match each gun to each spot in the book. You are misinformed.
    do you have any experience/insight on gun shows and the like? ive heard bad things about them, but i honestly dont know much at all about them at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    The fucking Derpship has crashed on Herp Island...
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Meet the new derp.

    Same as the old derp.

  7. #8827
    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    You're extremely well spaced reply really didn't address anything I've tried to address. Not everyone has the ability to bolt a safe. Even if we ignore the financial level of the whole debate; there still hasn't been an acknowledgement that there should be a look at the legal issue some people have with this "proper level" of security. It's very easy to smugly say that if they can't have a safe they can't have a gun, but you can only do that if once again you wish to ignore the ramifications and context such things actually express.

    In short, you and anyone else would be saying that people who live in condos or apartments are people who are not worthy enough to protect themselves because of their financial or economical level. That's a pretty shitty thing to be proclaiming.

    Listen, I get it and I agree. Weapons should be in safe locations. However, the means available to 1 person aren't always available to another, and unless you can address everyone from an college student to a 80 year old retiree, you're idealizing out a vast number of people from being able to reasonably provide personal defense and protection. That's a very dire problem to much of these broad stroke opinions on firearms in general. Either people are personalizing or narrowing ideas down to extremely limited cases or situations while ignoring the general populace.
    Well there are always going to be negative effects of such a huge amount of firearms.

    Enforce safes and 'discriminate' against certain people or leave things as they are and let hundreds of thousands of legally obtained firearms filter into the criminal community to be used and discarded or sold.

    I know there is at least one other British gun owner here that feels similarly to me, in that if you can't properly secure your weapons you simply shouldn't be allowed them.

    Besides, if the 2A is really about civilians having access to firearms as a means to prevent tyrannical government, I have no idea how that translates to using firearms to defend yourself against civilians.
    If that's the case then there should be safes and firearms provided by the government to fulfill those rights and a box of sealed ammunition that's checked quarterly to ensure it hasn't been used, or at least have it so like in the UK you can be spot checked at any time to make sure your firearms are in your safe etc.
    Pretty sure that's how it is in Switzerland, allbeit different reasoning.

  8. #8828
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaggySweetness View Post
    Translation: "No matter how valid your point may be, I do not know it therefore I am ignorant to it. Please agree with me or fuck off".
    By all means, if he is a professional in the field please share with me Ted Talks credentials, and then I shall address them. Until then, I'm going to be sticking with things like.... a basic fundamental knowledge of the drug research process within the United States, as is controlled and regulated by the FDA. Actually.... just tell me what an NDA is and what it entails without having to google it, and I'll be moderately happy with just that.
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

  9. #8829
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    I don't know who Ted Talks is, and do not in any way recognize his validity. If you want to use an external source, try to use one that I care about. And if you want to asset that research is not based first and foremost on discovering and removing drugs with potential lethal side effects, perhaps you should do some research on your own besides cruising through circle-jerking web blogs.
    WOW, with a stellar attitude and educational response as that, I'm just at a complete surprise at why so many of your comments and replies to others seems so... oh man what's the word.... Smart... yeah that's it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_talks

  10. #8830
    Quote Originally Posted by Commissarr View Post
    Well there are always going to be negative effects of such a huge amount of firearms.

    Enforce safes and 'discriminate' against certain people or leave things as they are and let hundreds of thousands of legally obtained firearms filter into the criminal community to be used and discarded or sold.

    I know there is at least one other British gun owner here that feels similarly to me, in that if you can't properly secure your weapons you simply shouldn't be allowed them.

    Besides, if the 2A is really about civilians having access to firearms as a means to prevent tyrannical government, I have no idea how that translates to using firearms to defend yourself against civilians.
    If that's the case then there should be safes and firearms provided by the government to fulfill those rights and a box of sealed ammunition that's checked quarterly to ensure it hasn't been used, or at least have it so like in the UK you can be spot checked at any time to make sure your firearms are in your safe etc.
    Pretty sure that's how it is in Switzerland, allbeit different reasoning.
    What about all those "legally obtained" (by the US government) that were the illegally sold (by the US government) to known criminal organizations? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

    Wiki not good enough? How about L.A. Times? http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec...rious-20121220

    Still not enough? How about the Department of Justice review? http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/2012/s1209.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGravemind View Post
    If I was in his boots (and forced to join the SS in 1939 or whenever he joined), I would have tried to liberate the camp myself or die trying. He did not. He traded his life for the life of thousands of people, thus he should face the consequences
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    Oh would you now? It truly is amazing how many heroic people we have wasting their time on internet.

  11. #8831
    Quote Originally Posted by Commissarr View Post
    Well there are always going to be negative effects of such a huge amount of firearms.

    Enforce safes and 'discriminate' against certain people or leave things as they are and let hundreds of thousands of legally obtained firearms filter into the criminal community to be used and discarded or sold.

    I know there is at least one other British gun owner here that feels similarly to me, in that if you can't properly secure your weapons you simply shouldn't be allowed them.

    Besides, if the 2A is really about civilians having access to firearms as a means to prevent tyrannical government, I have no idea how that translates to using firearms to defend yourself against civilians.
    If that's the case then there should be safes and firearms provided by the government to fulfill those rights and a box of sealed ammunition that's checked quarterly to ensure it hasn't been used, or at least have it so like in the UK you can be spot checked at any time to make sure your firearms are in your safe etc.
    Pretty sure that's how it is in Switzerland, allbeit different reasoning.
    People illegally obtaining weapons will happen with safe enforcement or without. With gun bans or without. There's too many ways to illegally obtain a weapon. The reason rules like this couldn't be enforced is that it would infringe on peoples right to privacy. Police or other would have to enter your home on a regular basis, and check into your personal life and property.

  12. #8832
    Quote Originally Posted by Commissarr View Post
    Well there are always going to be negative effects of such a huge amount of firearms.

    Enforce safes and 'discriminate' against certain people or leave things as they are and let hundreds of thousands of legally obtained firearms filter into the criminal community to be used and discarded or sold.

    I know there is at least one other British gun owner here that feels similarly to me, in that if you can't properly secure your weapons you simply shouldn't be allowed them.

    Besides, if the 2A is really about civilians having access to firearms as a means to prevent tyrannical government, I have no idea how that translates to using firearms to defend yourself against civilians.
    If that's the case then there should be safes and firearms provided by the government to fulfill those rights and a box of sealed ammunition that's checked quarterly to ensure it hasn't been used, or at least have it so like in the UK you can be spot checked at any time to make sure your firearms are in your safe etc.
    Pretty sure that's how it is in Switzerland, allbeit different reasoning.
    Well there is still this huge disconnect here. I'm not going to discuss the 2A as it's already been done by the Supreme Court. That information is out there, public and free.

    I agree with the right to carry. The right to carry being allowed to people answers the whole "locked up in a secure safe" issue that most people in lower economic levels suffer from. While I understand that doesn't really make sense or fly to people from England, I don't really follow the whole concept the UK has against self defense anyway so neither of us actually agree with "reasonable" limitations enforced by the others government.

  13. #8833
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    By all means, if he is a professional in the field please share with me Ted Talks credentials, and then I shall address them. Until then, I'm going to be sticking with things like.... a basic fundamental knowledge of the drug research process within the United States, as is controlled and regulated by the FDA. Actually.... just tell me what an NDA is and what it entails without having to google it, and I'll be moderately happy with just that.
    I'm not entitled to have to prove anything to you, other than to disprove your points in an argument. The only thing you've proven to me so far is your ignorance and a strong will to have a closed mind.

  14. #8834
    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    Well there is still this huge disconnect here. I'm not going to discuss the 2A as it's already been done by the Supreme Court. That information is out there, public and free.

    I agree with the right to carry. The right to carry being allowed to people answers the whole "locked up in a secure safe" issue that most people in lower economic levels suffer from. While I understand that doesn't really make sense or fly to people from England, I don't really follow the whole concept the UK has against self defense anyway so neither of us actually agree with "reasonable" limitations enforced by the others government.
    UK Self Defence Lessons: Step 1: Curl into ball on ground. Step 2: Hope you don't die.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGravemind View Post
    If I was in his boots (and forced to join the SS in 1939 or whenever he joined), I would have tried to liberate the camp myself or die trying. He did not. He traded his life for the life of thousands of people, thus he should face the consequences
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    Oh would you now? It truly is amazing how many heroic people we have wasting their time on internet.

  15. #8835
    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    Well there is still this huge disconnect here. I'm not going to discuss the 2A as it's already been done by the Supreme Court. That information is out there, public and free.

    I agree with the right to carry. The right to carry being allowed to people answers the whole "locked up in a secure safe" issue that most people in lower economic levels suffer from. While I understand that doesn't really make sense or fly to people from England, I don't really follow the whole concept the UK has against self defense anyway so neither of us actually agree with "reasonable" limitations enforced by the others government.
    The problem with the UK, is that many of their citizens have been PUNISHED for defending themselves against criminals. That is ridiculous in every way in my eyes.

  16. #8836
    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    do you have any experience/insight on gun shows and the like? ive heard bad things about them, but i honestly dont know much at all about them at all.
    Sure, worked plenty of shows over the years. Only in south/mid florida though. Most gunshows here are dominated by 3-4 large firearms dealers, with another 15+ small dealers that are more specialized, and the rest of the show is ammo/holsters/airsoft stuff. South Florida has "no private sales at gun shows", mid does not.

  17. #8837
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    WOW, with a stellar attitude and educational response as that, I'm just at a complete surprise at why so many of your comments and replies to others seems so... oh man what's the word.... Smart... yeah that's it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_talks
    Thank you, was that really so hard? As for my response to that, I think that another has already covered my response fluidly.

    Andrew Jack in the Financial Times called it "an intense and a depressing read – both for the facts outlined but also the limited nuance." He wrote that "Goldacre is at his best in methodically dissecting poor clinical trials. He rightly stresses the im*portance of transparency so that third parties can pore over the data independently. ... He is less strong in ex*plaining the complex background reality, such as the general constraints and individual slips of regulators and pharma companies' employees. Nor is he able to assess the net impact of the current system: how many lives have been improved compared with those hurt by the current, if imperfect system, which has led to extraordinary new treatments in recent years for HIV, rheumatoid arthritis and cancer."

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 01:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaggySweetness View Post
    I'm not entitled to have to prove anything to you, other than to disprove your points in an argument. The only thing you've proven to me so far is your ignorance and a strong will to have a closed mind.
    If that is your opinion, than by all means carry on. I apologize for upsetting you by repeatedly debunking your posts.
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

  18. #8838
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Sure, worked plenty of shows over the years. Only in south/mid florida though. Most gunshows here are dominated by 3-4 large firearms dealers, with another 15+ small dealers that are more specialized, and the rest of the show is ammo/holsters/airsoft stuff. South Florida has "no private sales at gun shows", mid does not.
    the main thing i hear about is gun sales bypassing background checks or "cooling off periods". is there truth to this, or do they have to maintain local laws, or what?
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    The fucking Derpship has crashed on Herp Island...
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Meet the new derp.

    Same as the old derp.

  19. #8839
    Quote Originally Posted by Priestiality View Post
    UK Self Defence Lessons: Step 1: Curl into ball on ground. Step 2: Hope you don't die.
    lol pretty much. I'm one of those people who actually wanted to try to understand the other side of the pond and where they were coming from on this whole gun debate. So I took the time to poke around on google and see what the self defense laws were in the UK and get a feeling for how or why the ban was passed for them. The more I read about what you are and are not allowed to carry or do in a defense situation in public is fucking awful. That being said, it is my personal opinion. Reading how their system works did at least give me the insight or understanding as to why I (or Americans) seem so "crazy" to them.

  20. #8840
    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    the main thing i hear about is gun sales bypassing background checks or "cooling off periods". is there truth to this, or do they have to maintain local laws, or what?
    This is an issue with the ATF and Federal laws being circumvented because they are too fucking lazy to fix their own problem. The "loop hole" comes from State laws allowing for a private sale of a firearm to another person without a background check.

    Now there is a stipulation for this that is written in code already. The issue is that they didn't clean up the law to regulate tax records. If you are an FFL dealer, no matter what state you are in, you are not allowed to sale a weapon without a background check. What the "problem" is are the people who make a living going from state to state with the no background private sale and making a living at doing it. This is actually in violation of the Federal code but the ATF is too fucking lazy or incapable of working with the IRS to put these fuckers in prison.

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