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  1. #1
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Why are people so against a united federal European Union?

    Why are people so against a united federal European Union that is a country of its own?

    I mean, I stood and thought. Ever since WW2 nationalism has fallen in many countries, and while there are still people who see "their country above all", most people can understand by now that nationalism is nothing and they are not better than those other people from another country. So I don't really see how this would be the case.

    Then we have the idea that the EU is not democratic. Yet, the members of the EU parliament are voted directly by the people of the EU. So... the people vote their representatives. Ok, maybe the Council of European Affairs then? Nope, here the ministers of each country meet, ministers who were put in function by the votes of the people. The European Council? It's the heads of state, voted by us, the people. You could argue that the European Comission is not really that democratic for every country sends a representative... yet that representative is chosen by your government, whom you voted for?
    So, the EU is controlled by the votes of the people in the EU.

    Ok... maybe people feel that they don't want their country to give control to Brussels? But then, we already discussed that your country has your representatives right there. And now I'm sure that some might argue that by giving control you're actually making things worse as ... Finland for example, can't understand the problems of... Portugal with producing... oranges. Stupid example, I know, but go with it. But then, most of you here are sitting in a comfy chair in a town/big city. Can you understand the problems of people working the farms in the country? No. Then how come your country still has those farmers if the city can't understand them well? Because they sent representatives and explained, this food produces your food, so we need subventions! And they were given them. So, at least in theory, a united EU would work the same.
    Portugal's orange farmers would come and say "hey, we need a good irrigation system for our oranges!"
    And Finland would say "why?"
    And Portugal would reply "well, you see, if we don't get it, our trees will die for its a horrible drought and nobody would get oranges".
    And after being shown how bad the drought is, Finland would probably agree to help fund the oranges of Portugal.
    And this would happen with most of any subject. Are salaries in a part of the EU too low and the people there are exploited? The strong nations would help the area rise a bit. Why? Because they can't afford hundreads of thousands of immigrants, because otherwise they'd always need to pay for that nation or lower the prices of their products since the nations around would not afford to buy (thus earning less). And the big countries would profit because, as the weak countries rise, they can sell their products in said countries for more, they can get help on their own back when they need it etc.

    One more reason I could thing of, people wouldn't want a united EU because they feel that their weak group is treated like shit by the strong groups or the strong group is invaded by the weak group. Ok, fair enough. I could understand that you want the people in the weaker nation to work for their own stuff. But what if they are? The most common response is "then they'd be rich like us". Oh, ok, so you're saying that London was built this generation? No? Maybe the German economy was brought back to life after WW2 from its own forces alone? No, the Marshall plan helped, otherwise they'd have still be quite bad. Maybe those highways were built by this generation? No? So... you're asking people in weaker countries to do stuff that was done in your country over generations, you're asking them do do it now? Hmmmm, that doesn't seem fair, now does it? My country didn't get money from the Marshall plan, it was actually built back from WW2 by romanians, using slave labour forced by the soviets too. It fell again with communism. We have few old big cities because major empires used do have their wars on romanian soil and all would pillage and burn everything.
    On the other hand we have those that feel the strong nations control them. Well fair enough, and besides some certain weird stuff like "this traditional food contains too much sodium!" or stuff like that, does the EU (so the EU as the institutions of the EU, not some random jerk company in some country abusing your "people", that's not the EU and that's actually illegal according to EU laws) truly force stuff that wasn't agreed on by your government, bad horrible stuff on you? I haven't really seen that.
    Plus, weak or strong, you need to understand that your nation can't sustain itself alone. Look at Norway, they're outside the EU, they're kind of a strong country, yet even they have to agree to certain EU regulations... which they can't even vote on! Because they're not in the EU! Alone your country would be picked on by stronger neighbours, and not have any say about it. Do you want Russia to start claiming parts of Poland and the Baltic states? I'm sure they would if those countries were not in the EU and NATO, you know how I know this? Because they did it before. You want the USA culture and control become full in the UK? It would, you're already invaded by their televisions and fast foods, but it would be worse if you weren't in the EU, just look at Central American countries and the history of the so called banana republics.


    So then why are people against the EU? Is it a combination of all these? Are they simply not informed? Do they just fear change? Explain, because I simply can't understand and I believe a united federal EU would be beneficial and could help its citizens.

    Oh, and if you're from the USA, Russia, China or some other strong country outside the EU and don't like the idea of a strong EU

  2. #2
    Because they're nationalistic dipshits.

    No, but seriously, I think there was a graph earlier that showed that 46% of the EU's population was for a federal EU, it's mostly the UK and the Nordic countries that are vehemently against it.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    Because they're nationalistic dipshits.

    No, but seriously, I think there was a graph earlier that showed that 46% of the EU's population was for a federal EU, it's mostly the UK and the Nordic countries that are vehemently against it.
    Actually, I think it is because of nationalism, and unfortunately nationalism is increasing, not decreasing.

    For the record, I'm very much in favor of a unified Europe, but then again, I want there to be a unified world government.
    "The secret of life is to appreciate the pleasure of being terribly, terribly deceived." -Oscar Wilde

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  4. #4
    Blademaster
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    It's pride and ignorance, because so many don't even want to hear about other countries and their problems, not even if they sell so many of their own products/services in that country.

    You mentioned Romania there, they buy so many cars from Germany/UK/France (buy as new) that it's even funny. Romania seems a poor country with a struggling middle class, but they have a major spending problem/habit and taking loans to buy new gadgets. *I am a Data Analyst, i have access to actual financial statements.

    So there you have it, i do agree with most of your points, i do like change, i don't mind and don't discriminate people by their look/country of origin (except Irish, never trust an Irish), so let's transform this into a Federal State and put numbers instead of countries, so i can go in District 11 and play poker in Verbier.

  5. #5
    http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/a...2_first_en.pdf

    53% of EU citizens feel like their voice doesn't matter in the EU. This is why they there will never be a Federal Europe.
    Don't worry what people think of you, because they never do.

  6. #6
    It is mostly fear of change. They are worried that their culture will change if Europe unifies. What they fail to realise is that cultural change will happen as the years go by with or without the EU.

  7. #7
    People are afraid of change. This would be a very big change. A united Europe wouldn't come without sacrifice on all subjects would in the long run it would definitely be worth it.

    For the record, I'm very much in favor of a unified Europe, but then again, I want there to be a unified world government.
    Imagine the possibilites if humanity could unite. How far we could go.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans
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    A): I have no desire to live under Scandinavian tax laws, French work laws, British free speech laws, etc. etc.

    B) It is bad enough to have 1 vote among 10 millions, but 1 vote amongst 500 millions? That is so much worse. Right now, I can team up with other people and by working long and hard achieve some measure of influence. I can go meet and speak with the politicians if I so desire. In unified EU all that goes out of the window.
    Quote Originally Posted by b2121945 View Post
    Don't see what's wrong with fighting alongside Nazi Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    someone who disagrees with me is simply wrong.

  9. #9
    I don't feel like learning the political nuances of 27 other countries. It's hard enough keeping track of my own.
    One cannot simply quit wow his way into Mordor.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoranon View Post
    A): I have no desire to live under Scandinavian tax laws, French work laws, British free speech laws, etc. etc.

    B) It is bad enough to have 1 vote among 10 millions, but 1 vote amongst 500 millions? That is so much worse. Right now, I can team up with other people and by working long and hard achieve some measure of influence. I can go meet and speak with the politicians if I so desire. In unified EU all that goes out of the window.
    No one says you have to. What if the united Europe was on the liberal side and had 20% tax laws?

    According to your point B, it is impossible to gain influence in a large country. The US says hi. A lot of big shots came from the US, what's stopping you from gaining influence if you have something of worth?

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire Joseph Stalin's Avatar
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    Mostly because I'm against giving a single political body so much power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acelius View Post
    Imagine the possibilites if humanity could unite. How far we could go.
    That seems extremely naive to me.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acelius View Post
    No one says you have to. What if the united Europe was on the liberal side and had 20% tax laws?

    According to your point B, it is impossible to gain influence in a large country. The US says hi. A lot of big shots came from the US, what's stopping you from gaining influence if you have something of worth?
    United Europe liberal? That is a good joke, look at for example the tax rates in the bigger countries.

    Except everyone in the US speaks the same language and do not have thousands of years of history between them, they have the same values as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by b2121945 View Post
    Don't see what's wrong with fighting alongside Nazi Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    someone who disagrees with me is simply wrong.

  13. #13
    Elemental Lord Dezerte's Avatar
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    I'm not against it, I just think we require a higher degree of unity within Europe to create such an entity (and have it be successful). Forcing such a change, no matter how good the intentions may be, will at this point in time probably not go over so well.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Acelius View Post
    Imagine the possibilites if humanity could unite. How far we could go.
    Like what?

    Do you sjws even think when you spout such nonsense?

    "It would be so great if everyone lived with each other in peace and blahblahblah..."

    Yeah, you know, most of todays' technological wonders we have are there because of their use in military.

  15. #15
    Field Marshal Meestercat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stalin View Post
    Mostly because I'm against giving a single political body so much power.
    I love the juxtaposition of quote and username here.
    "I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different." ~Kurt Vonnegut.

  16. #16
    Scarab Lord Mall Security's Avatar
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    I would rather have a global union since nothing that goes on in one region is without effecting another, one world order and expand into space.
    If at first choice is given, and then it was taken away, then it was never really a choice to begin with, similarly the same can be said true for any kind of rights or freedoms, these can never be privileges bestowed upon the few and denied to the many for it is a practice of tyranny. Never trust any man who feels you should beg nor ask to be treated fairly or to be respected.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome Dugna's Avatar
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    Because with how stupidly easy EU is influenced with extremism over the years, having most of it in one form of govt makes it even easier to control.

  18. #18
    Because the discourse of federalists fails to impress.
    And something about placing all the eggs in the same basket.

  19. #19
    Because Bussels is full of crap. Just take that undemocratic bullshit the eu commission is going with.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Aredeth View Post
    It's pride and ignorance, because so many don't even want to hear about other countries and their problems, not even if they sell so many of their own products/services in that country.
    I could be here all day, but the above pretty much sums up my opinion on it. If your happy to buy anything made from "exploiting" underpaid/over-worked people in the 3rd world just so you can wear nice trainers or have a nice phone or a nice necklace, your a hypocrite pretending that you care about the quality of some Lithuanian [e.g.] farmers life and whether he gets paid the same per hour as you, or if his dentist costs more

    Some single currency/government isnt going to fix all the worlds problems, and if it would why stop at Europe, lets make all of Asia or all of America's or the world have a singular government...... that'll stop all the wars
    Last edited by Brady84; Yesterday at 01:01 PM.

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