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  1. #43541
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    No, that's not true at all. Arguments from authority always make a claim of truth. I haven't done that. I called the paper "highly relevant" because it's in a peer reviewed medical journal. There's nothing fallacious about that. At all.
    Welp, clearly you didn't take the lesson to heart. Arguments from authority don't always make a claim of truth, though most do.

    What you don't seem to understand is that an appeal to authority fallacy says nothing about the veracity or falsity of the underlying assertion. The fallacy is in the use of a statement from authority towards that end in a logical argument. As such, it's a fallacy to accept the imprimatur of the authority as necessarily "relevant". It might be relevant, it might not. But taking the word of the authority in the absence of the actual proof of its relevancy is a fallacy, pure and simple.

    And please not that you didn't just say "relevant". You claimed that the study was "evidence":
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    More evidence that blah blah blah...
    As I pointed out, it's a fallacy to attribute evidentiary value to the abstract by itself, without access to the underlying data and methodology.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    You´re right, it doesn´t. I´ve linked you the definition and you still insist on it. That´s quite hilarious.
    You're acting like what you posted contradicts my explanation of how the fallacy was applied in this situation. Hilarious indeed.

    What's ironic is that I already had a copy of that wikipedia page open on another tab before you even linked it. I know exactly what an appeal to authority fallacy is, thanks.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  2. #43542
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    What's ironic is that I already had a copy of that wikipedia page open on another tab before you even linked it.
    Well you obviously didn´t read it. That´s quite ironic, you´re right.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Hilarious indeed.
    I doubt it´s worth the time trying to explain it to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  3. #43543
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Well you obviously didn´t read it. That´s quite ironic, you´re right. I doubt it´s worth the time trying to explain it to you.
    What's really hilarious is that I did read it, though I already knew it, and then I explained it ITT, all before you posted the first time, and yet you can't even attempt to articulate why you think I'm wrong.

    Aren't you the least bit embarrassed for using a 10-year-old's argument? "Ha, you're wrong, but I can't be bothered to explain why."


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  4. #43544
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    What's really hilarious is that I did read it, though I already knew it, and then I explained it ITT, all before you posted the first time, and yet you can't even attempt to articulate why you think I'm wrong.

    Aren't you the least bit embarrassed for using a 10-year-old's argument? "Ha, you're wrong, but I can't be bothered to explain why."
    I really thought you´d find it for yourself. That saying "here´s evidence" isn´t equivalent to "this is proof". Pre never claimed anything other than providing a link and saying it´s relevant. No claim of truth, rightness or verity because of who produced that study.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  5. #43545
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    I really thought you´d find it for yourself. That saying "here´s evidence" isn´t equivalent to "this is proof". Pre never claimed anything other than providing a link and saying it´s relevant. No claim of truth, rightness or verity because of who produced that study.
    Clearly you don't bother reading other posts in this thread. I've already addressed this. Claiming that the abstract is either relevant or evidence is a logical fallacy, too.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  6. #43546
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Clearly you don't bother reading other posts in this thread. I've already addressed this. Claiming that the abstract is either relevant or evidence is a logical fallacy, too.
    So you´re claiming it´s not relevant or evidence based on?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  7. #43547
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    So you´re claiming it´s not relevant or evidence based on?
    Are you kidding me? Read the many posts I've just made on the subject over the last page or two.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  8. #43548
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Are you kidding me? Read the many posts I've just made on the subject over the last page or two.
    ... Well at least you´re not claiming appeal to authority anymore, that´s progress. The logical fallacy i can agree on, since he didn´t read the thing, but as you also didn´t read it (wild guess here), you can´t claim it´s not relevant or evidence.

    On the other hand, we have a saying in german that roughly translates to "you can claim everything you want".
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  9. #43549
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    ... Well at least you´re not claiming appeal to authority anymore, that´s progress. The logical fallacy i can agree on, since he didn´t read the thing, but as you also didn´t read it (wild guess here), you can´t claim it´s not relevant or evidence.
    No, clearly you still don't understand. It was an appeal to authority fallacy. And you missed the part where I said that the fact that it was a fallacy didn't mean that the study itself was necessarily wrong, irrelevant or not evidence.

    The fallacy is accepting the author's word (the abstract) as relevant or evidence in the logical argument that we're engaging in without seeing the actual data and/or methodology.

    Basically, using the author's word about the study to further PRE 9-11's argument is a logical fallacy. The study could be factual, or it could be erroneous, but either way, based on the rules of logic, we cannot simply take the author's word for it. We cannot imply that the author's word has weight, relevance, or use it as evidence, either.

    The data and methodology of the study is evidence. The abstract is not.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  10. #43550
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    The fallacy is accepting the author's word (the abstract) as relevant or evidence in the logical argument that we're engaging in without seeing the actual data and/or methodology.
    That´s simple not an appeal to authority. I don´t understand how you don´t see this.

    He can accept the author´s word all he wants, but unless he´s using it as an argument, he´s not appealing to authority.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  11. #43551
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    He can accept the author´s word all he wants, but unless he´s using it as an argument, he´s not appealing to authority.
    Jesus. Read more carefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    The fallacy is accepting the author's word (the abstract) as relevant or evidence in the logical argument that we're engaging in without seeing the actual data and/or methodology.
    He's not just accepting it, he's claiming it as relevant to or evidence in the argument here. He posted the abstract link, and said "here is evidence". He attempted to use it as evidence to support his position in this argument. That's an appeal to authority fallacy. Just because he's not claiming that it's automatically true does not change the fact that he's using it in support of his argument.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  12. #43552
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    He's not just accepting it, he's claiming it as relevant to or evidence in the argument here. He posted the abstract link, and said "here is evidence". He attempted to use it as evidence to support his position in this argument. That's an appeal to authority fallacy. Just because he's not claiming that it's automatically true does not change the fact that he's using it in support of his argument.
    He never made an argument out of it! Get it in your head. You´re trying to read stuff into his posting of a link that´s just not there. You can´t use something to support your argument while not implying it´s true.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  13. #43553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    He never made an argument out of it!
    Sure he did. He posted the link as "evidence". That's using it in support of his position.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    You can´t use something to support your argument while not implying it´s true.
    Oh, he's implying that it's true. He's just not saying that it's necessarily true. But calling it evidence? That's an implication.

    And even if it weren't, it'd still be a logical fallacy.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  14. #43554
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    a logical fallacy.
    Yes, that´s all it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  15. #43555
    Legendary! TZucchini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Welp, clearly you didn't take the lesson to heart. Arguments from authority don't always make a claim of truth, though most do.
    You're getting warmer....

    And please note that you didn't just say "relevant". You claimed that the study was "evidence":
    It is evidence:

    Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion.

    As I pointed out, it's a fallacy to attribute evidentiary value to the abstract by itself, without access to the underlying data and methodology.
    According to who?
    Eat yo vegetables

  16. #43556
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Yes, that´s all it is.
    Clearly you're not understanding that an appeal to authority is a type of logical fallacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    It is evidence.
    No. The study might be evidence. The abstract, on the other hand, has no evidentiary value in a logical argument because its validity is based (without the underlying study data and methodology) upon the word of the author.

    Attempting to use the abstract by itself in an argument such as this is an appeal to authority fallacy. Eeeeven if you try to distance yourself from the fallacy by saying that you're not saying whether or not the study is true. Claiming it as "evidence" is an attempt to give it argumentative gravitas where there should be none. That's the essence of the fallacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    According to who?
    According to the rules of deductive reasoning.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  17. #43557
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Clearly you're not understanding that an appeal to authority is a type of logical fallacy.



    No. The study might be evidence. The abstract, on the other hand, has no evidentiary value in a logical argument because its validity is based (without the underlying study data and methodology) upon the word of the author.

    Attempting to use the abstract by itself in an argument such as this is an appeal to authority fallacy. Eeeeven if you try to distance yourself from the fallacy by saying that you're not saying whether or not the study is true. Claiming it as "evidence" is an attempt to give it argumentative gravitas where there should be none. That's the essence of the fallacy.



    According to the rules of deductive reasoning.
    The reason he started linking those paywall articles is specifically so there is no abstract that we can look at because when he did link studies with abstracts he had to resort to telling us we were't smart enough to refute them especially when most of the time the abstract had to concede that the study was shit to begin with.

  18. #43558
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion.
    Here's some more clarification. You posted this to describe evidence. The problem is that you're trying to claim that the abstract is presented in support of an assertion. Incorrect. The abstract is the assertion. It cannot support itself. That's circular reasoning, which is another logical fallacy. The real "evidence", if there is any, is located in the study itself, not the abstract, because the abstract is basically hearsay.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  19. #43559
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    It is evidence:

    According to who?
    Never change, PRE. Your fallacies are the only thing keeping this thread entertaining.
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    I am ACTUALLY ASKING for them to ban me and relieve me from the misery of this thread.

  20. #43560
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Clearly you're not understanding that an appeal to authority is a type of logical fallacy.
    Now you´re producing a logical fallacy yourself. Not every logical fallacy is an appeal to authority.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

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