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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubalus View Post
    you will need some pieces to meet the ilvl req. for lfr, full hc dungeon gear won't get you in there and by now not many guilds will be willing to carry blue alts thru normal raids to gear them up, could ofc buy ah crap to boost ilvl if people have gold to trow away.
    ilevel requirement for lfr MSV is 460, so yes, full heroic will get you there. There you get 476, which suffices to take the next step, so this is not a valid point.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Admit that you think Cataclysm was designed better than TBC or Wrath first. Because that's what you're saying. Cataclysm had the best game design of any WoW expansion. I just want people to start admitting that's what they want.
    It's vastly superior to mists at any rate. It's a sad day but I'd welcome it back and the droves of fans who leave this game will leave Blizzard scratching their heads. Cataclysm kept me playing for MONTHS and MONTHS on end. The devs just failed to keep a good pace of end game content. Mists had me quit 2 months in regardless of how fast they release raid content.

    Dailies were never a cure for boredom. The sad fact is that Blizzard realizes this as well and the minute you take the gear out from behind them NO ONE WOULD DO THEM. Or virtually no one at any rate. Dailies in this expansion would be about as used as Rated bgs which now work under a similar paradigm. Want to cap your conquest points for the week? Do rated bgs. The developers freely admit this. Furthermore according to them they didn't intend to have any valor gear this expansion. So the valor gear behind the vendors is really just a huge obvious carrot because in testing they realized NOBODY WAS DOING FUCKING DAILIES BECAUSE THEY SUCK. So an overwhelming carrot had to be placed behind them. It's such a obvious skinner box.

    Do not expect this to change at least until the next expac and at this point I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will change by then.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2012-12-18 at 07:37 PM.

  3. #83
    The Patient
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    Make valor gear boe and allow people to send to alts or sell on the ah for people that don't want to do alts.

    It's a win/win. It allows people who did the dailies to sell gear and make money and potentially get gear for alts and the people who don't want to do dailies can buy the gear on the ah for an over inflated price and get the gear they will replace within a couple of months! :]

  4. #84
    Cata content at max level consisted of raiding a few bosses and dungeons. The daily grinds were worse than in MoP(TB and MF dailies) and there were far fewer LFR bosses for the casuals.

    Early Cata was especially tough for casual gamers because there was no LFR and you were lucky to complete 2 LFD runs a night so grinding rep or valor items was much more painful than it is now for most casual players. Later Cata with dungeon drops bumped up to epic it was very easy to get epics everywhere, but you were still stuck with only 8 LFR bosses.

    I'm not sure exactly what sort of content TonyIommi wants added to the game. Sounds more like it's a request for easier epics disguised as a rant about lack of content. Not to fear, I'm sure by the end of the expansion when dungeons are dropping 480+ ilvl gear and epics are everywhere, you'll get the same feel of 4.3 back.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Cata content at max level consisted of raiding a few bosses and dungeons. The daily grinds were worse than in MoP(TB and MF dailies) and there were far fewer LFR bosses for the casuals.

    Early Cata was especially tough for casual gamers because there was no LFR and you were lucky to complete 2 LFD runs a night so grinding rep or valor items was much more painful than it is now for most casual players. Later Cata with dungeon drops bumped up to epic it was very easy to get epics everywhere, but you were still stuck with only 8 LFR bosses.

    I'm not sure exactly what sort of content TonyIommi wants added to the game. Sounds more like it's a request for easier epics disguised as a rant about lack of content. Not to fear, I'm sure by the end of the expansion when dungeons are dropping 480+ ilvl gear and epics are everywhere, you'll get the same feel of 4.3 back.
    They were not worse. They were vastly better. You got rep for something you did anyway. That's EXACTLY why they were better and why the developers insisted they had to be change. Christ even the developers think it was better in terms of time requirement because they say you would grind it out in one night and then be done by chain running a few heroics. It's a massive exaggeration of course but his point was that getting rep was much less painful in cata because it happened as a natural part of what you were doing. It was couched in the normal process of gearing up. I don't want the 4.3 feeling back. I want rewarding dungeons back where I get gear from valor, the dungeons and the rep all in one. I want SOMETHING IN THIS GAME to actually reward me when I log on and not strangle my progression behind either RNG or Daily quests. It's a very simple request.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2012-12-18 at 07:53 PM.

  6. #86
    dailies should be linked to fun/vanity items, not valor gear.

    and before you say valor gear isnt needed for raiding, that may be true, but at the same time you are holding your raid back by not getting valor gear to fill slots occupied by blues.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    They were not worse. They were vastly better. You got rep for something you did anyway. That's EXACTLY why they were better and why the developers insisted they had to be change. Christ even the developers think it was better in terms of time requirement because they say you would grind it out in one night and then be done by chain running a few heroics. It's a massive exaggeration of course but his point was that getting rep was much less painful in cata because it happened as a natural part of what you were doing. It was couched in the normal process of gearing up. I don't want the 4.3 feeling back. I want rewarding dungeons back where I get gear from valor, the dungeons and the rep all in one. I want SOMETHING IN THIS GAME to actually reward me when I log on and not strangle my progression behind either RNG or Daily quests. It's a very simple request.
    Well, first of all, the dailies were worse in Cata. I'm talking TB and MF here. Dailies you couldn't do with tabards. I thought MF was pretty well designed for a daily hub, but it took 28 days if I recall to finish and there was no way to make it faster on alts.

    As for rep, early Cata was horrible for a lot of people. Maybe you had a guild group you chain ran dungeons with, but anyone who had to queue solo was SOL. 45 min queues for DPS, and many dungeons where you had a high chance of not being able to complete because of a bad group. You were lucky to get 2 done in one night so rep grinding even with tabards took a while. And you only got valor for the first dungeon you did each night, so valor gear took a long time to save up for as a non-raider. By the time I took a break in early Cata, I had 2 characters with most of the 359 rep gear and all reps maxed, and I don't believe I had a single valor piece bought on either of them.

    Yes, 4.3 was very rewarding with epics raining from the sky. The last patch of an expansion is always going to be that way as Blizzard catches everyone up to the latest tier. I'm sure the last patch of MoP will have epics everywhere as well when dungeons drop 480+ epics.

  8. #88
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moradim View Post
    heres my idea.

    exalted on main = unlocks items for alts

    there is no fucking way im doing the golden lotus grind again on my warlock.
    Yeah..there was no way I was grinding Therazane, Dragonmaw or ER on my alts in Cata..so I ended them at lv 85 in just...standard gear? Whoop de doop. Now..since when is that a problem? they are freaking alts. Since when are you entitled to the best gear on an alt without "effort". Stop trying to bribe the devs ffs....

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 10:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Moradim View Post
    dailies should be linked to fun/vanity items, not valor gear.

    and before you say valor gear isnt needed for raiding, that may be true, but at the same time you are holding your raid back by not getting valor gear to fill slots occupied by blues.
    You are holding your raid back by not knowing your class and performing at the best possible. Skill > gear. Several hundred guilds clearing content are proof. Easy to blame the design for that....we understand.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Well, first of all, the dailies were worse in Cata. I'm talking TB and MF here. Dailies you couldn't do with tabards. I thought MF was pretty well designed for a daily hub, but it took 28 days if I recall to finish and there was no way to make it faster on alts.

    As for rep, early Cata was horrible for a lot of people. Maybe you had a guild group you chain ran dungeons with, but anyone who had to queue solo was SOL. 45 min queues for DPS, and many dungeons where you had a high chance of not being able to complete because of a bad group. You were lucky to get 2 done in one night so rep grinding even with tabards took a while. And you only got valor for the first dungeon you did each night, so valor gear took a long time to save up for as a non-raider. By the time I took a break in early Cata, I had 2 characters with most of the 359 rep gear and all reps maxed, and I don't believe I had a single valor piece bought on either of them.

    Yes, 4.3 was very rewarding with epics raining from the sky. The last patch of an expansion is always going to be that way as Blizzard catches everyone up to the latest tier. I'm sure the last patch of MoP will have epics everywhere as well when dungeons drop 480+ epics.
    Again you keep bringing up 4.3, but it's not just 4.3 The entire EXPANSION was vastly more rewarding than it is now. Yes they made dungeons hard and some of you couldn't do it. Okay fantastic, so the answer is to tune the dungeon experience. The answer isn't to rob dungeons of most of their rewards in favor of making the game grindier and slow as fuck. I had 3 characters right up until firelands all with valor gear and all with rep gear as well. Rep gear bought with gold, valor gear bought with valor and drops. The game was simple more rewarding then. EVERYTHING is slower now and if it's fast it simple stops rewarding you up to a point or is stuck behind horrid rng. That's why you get alot of lfr complaints. They don't want to do dailies so they run lfr and get nothing and ask why the hell did I invent all that time when I got jack shit out of it?

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Moradim View Post
    this is mostly qq about alts. to spend your valor that you get from raiding, you need to grind out reps. which to be honest, is stupid. I get a currency from raiding, and I have to do DAILIES just for the RIGHT to spend it.
    No. I'll stop you right there and explain why that statement is blatantly, 100% wrong.

    The valor upgrade system, as implemented in 5.1 means you can always spend valor right up until you hit fully upgraded BiS items from heroic raiding. And here's the best part. Even once you start getting BiS items and upgrading them, it will take you a minimum of 24 weeks to get all of your items fully upgraded.

    Now for the kicker. You can spend valor, or have the "right" as you put it, to spend valor from day 1 of hitting 90. Go kill sha of anger and you'll get some 476 boots. You'll now spend 2 weeks upgrading those. After that, you probably picked up an LFR piece or 2. Go upgrade that.

    You have the "right" to spend as much valor as you earn. What you have to CHOOSE is where you spend it. If you want the 489 pieces, do dailies. They're better early on, but it only takes a few weeks for valor gear to become an inefficient spend of points.

    463 -> 489 via direct gear is ~66 points per ilvl (averaged over all valor items)
    476 -> 489 via direct gear is ~123 points per ilvl
    483 -> 489 via direct gear is ~190 points per ilvl

    Comparatively, the valor upgrade system is always 4 ilvl per 750 points, or ~187 points per ilvl. This system then is nearly as efficient in getting your item level up as it is to rep grind and buy upgrades from Mogu'shan LFR, and is MORE efficient than buying valor gear to replace pieces obtained in Heart of Fear LFR. The only time you actually benefit more from buying a replacement item with valor is going from heroic dungeon to rep valor gear, which you cannot do for at least 2 weeks of valor capping anyway. In that time, you probably picked up at least 1 LFR item or the boots from Sha of Anger.

    On top of all of that, the valor upgrade system does not stop being useful once you start getting 489 drops from MSV. You can continually be upgrading items as you win them, and like I said, it will be at least 6 months before you stop having items to upgrade.


    TLDR: You made a pointless and subjective over simplification of a system in the game that you don't like and wanted to bitch about. I did math and pointed out the flaws in your admittedly poorly structured argument. GG.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Yeah..there was no way I was grinding Therazane, Dragonmaw or ER on my alts in Cata..so I ended them at lv 85 in just...standard gear? Whoop de doop. Now..since when is that a problem? they are freaking alts. Since when are you entitled to the best gear on an alt without "effort". Stop trying to bribe the devs ffs....
    Heh, I did Therazane on all 9 of my alts while leveling. It only took me 7 tries to streamline that unlock. Though, by the time I was leveling those, the other faction epics/blue were useless.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    Again you keep bringing up 4.3, but it's not just 4.3 The entire EXPANSION was vastly more rewarding than it is now. Yes they made dungeons hard and some of you couldn't do it. Okay fantastic, so the answer is to tune the dungeon experience. The answer isn't to rob dungeons of most of their rewards in favor of making the game grindier and slow as fuck. I had 3 characters right up until firelands all with valor gear and all with rep gear as well. Rep gear bought with gold, valor gear bought with valor and drops. The game was simple more rewarding then. EVERYTHING is slower now and if it's fast it simple stops rewarding you up to a point or is stuck behind horrid rng. That's why you get alot of lfr complaints. They don't want to do dailies so they run lfr and get nothing and ask why the hell did I invent all that time when I got jack shit out of it?

    I bring up 4.3 because it was the only time that would even remotely compare to MoP with how "rewarding" it was. Early Cata was not very rewarding for people who weren't raiding. Middle Cata gave us troll dungeons that dropped "epics" which weren't even high enough ilvl to qualify for the Cata epic gear achieve.

    So 7 months into an expansion you had 3 characters decked out in 359 gear(equivalent to gear that drops in the first normal raid). Less than 3 months into MoP, I have 2 characters already in the 480's(near ilvl of drops in normal MV), 1 in the 470's, and with valor buff and double rep, I fully expect to have at least 5 characters total in the high 480's ilvl by the time the next tier comes out.
    Last edited by SamR; 2012-12-18 at 09:51 PM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    I bring up 4.3 because it was the only time that would even remotely compare to MoP with how "rewarding" it was. Early Cata was not very rewarding for people who weren't raiding. Middle Cata gave us troll dungeons that dropped "epics" which weren't even high enough ilvl to qualify for the Cata epic gear achieve.

    So 7 months into an expansion you had characters decked out in 359 gear(equivalent to gear that drops in the first normal raid). Less than 3 months into MoP, I have 2 characters already in the 480's(near ilvl of drops in normal MV), 1 in the 470's, and with valor buff and double rep, I fully expect to have at least 5 characters total in the 480's ilvl by the time the next tier comes out.
    Again that's wrong. It's simple a lie. Cata was EXTREMELY rewarding. Throughout the entirety of the game. Mists is even less rewarding agurably than TBC. In fact in tbc I still got rep in dungeons, mind you only one a day but still I got gear from rep and gear from drops in dungeons. The natural activity I was doing anyway gave me that much more bonus. In cata dungeons granted me gear from drops and from rep and from valor. All in one place. In fact even the developers don't agree with you.

    Stephen Reis ‏@StephenReis123
    @Ghostcrawler Are you convinced "going slow" was the right design philosophy to put to players?
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    15 Dec Stephen Reis ‏@StephenReis123
    @Ghostcrawler Really appreciate the response and I want to stress that but at the same time why are so man many of your answers exaggerated?
    His answer was exactly that exaggerated, but his point was that it was to rewarding in cataclysm and you went to fast because it was so rewarding. Now the game is significantly LESS rewarding. Mists is grindy, unrewarding and slow as hell. You are now arguing against the developers. Christ even you said it, tony your just after easier epics. Why do you think that's the case? BECAUSE IN THE PAST IT WAS MORE REWARDING
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2012-12-18 at 09:55 PM.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    Again that's wrong. It's simple a lie. Cata was EXTREMELY rewarding. Throughout the entirety of the game. Mists is even less rewarding agurably than TBC. In fact in tbc I still got rep in dungeons, mind you only one a day but still I got gear from rep and gear from drops in dungeons. The natural activity I was doing anyway gave me that much more bonus. In cata dungeons granted me gear from drops and from rep and from valor. All in one place. In fact even the developers don't agree with you.
    Which part is a lie? That pre-4.3 non-raiders didn't get as many rewards as quickly as they did in 4.3 and now in MoP?

    I've already laid out in detail why early Cata was in fact not all that rewarding for people who didn't raid. Long dungeon queues, much higher chance of dungeon fail, etc. You could try to challenge my arguments explaining how exactly pre-4.3 Cata was more rewarding than current MoP rather than just calling me a liar.

    His answer was exactly that exaggerated, but his point was that it was to rewarding in cataclysm and you went to fast because it was so rewarding. Now the game is significantly LESS rewarding. Mists is grindy, unrewarding and slow as hell. You are now arguing against the developers. Christ even you said it, tony your just after easier epics. Why do you think that's the case? BECAUSE IN THE PAST IT WAS MORE REWARDING
    Sure, when 4.3 came out, rep was a non-factor. You were running ezmode 4.3 dungeons for great epics anyway and got rep as a free bonus. You also got LFR, the new easy way to get gear. By that point, the rep rewards were pointless anyway and people only bothered wearing tabards for the enchants.

    Do I need to pull out the Blizz quote about Cata dungeons being too challenging as a reason they switched to ezmode 4.3 dungeons? Too challenging is kind of the opposite of too rewarding.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Which part is a lie? That pre-4.3 non-raiders didn't get as many rewards as quickly as they did in 4.3 and now in MoP?

    I've already laid out in detail why early Cata was in fact not all that rewarding for people who didn't raid. Long dungeon queues, much higher chance of dungeon fail, etc. You could try to challenge my arguments explaining how exactly pre-4.3 Cata was more rewarding than current MoP rather than just calling me a liar.



    Sure, when 4.3 came out, rep was a non-factor. You were running ezmode 4.3 dungeons for great epics anyway and got rep as a free bonus. You also got LFR, the new easy way to get gear. By that point, the rep rewards were pointless anyway and people only bothered wearing tabards for the enchants.

    Do I need to pull out the Blizz quote about Cata dungeons being too challenging as a reason they switched to ezmode 4.3 dungeons? Too challenging is kind of the opposite of too rewarding.
    Too challenging is actually not the opposite of too rewarding. That's only a figment of your head. The developer quote shuts your argument down but I'll humor you some more. Mists is less rewarding than all of cataclysm, raid or not. Again if you dungeon'd you got more reward. Rep gear, valor gear and drops from the dungeons. You are grossly misinformed if you think otherwise. If LFR had been around then it would be over kill and I'm not sure why you think you can invoke lfr and say cata was only rewarding if you raided. LFR is raiding. Tee rep rewards certainly weren't pointless at launch but that isn't the point anyway. YOU WERE REWARDED better in cataclysm and the developers acknowledge this.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2012-12-18 at 10:21 PM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Moradim View Post
    dailies should be linked to fun/vanity items, not valor gear.

    and before you say valor gear isnt needed for raiding, that may be true, but at the same time you are holding your raid back by not getting valor gear to fill slots occupied by blues.
    It's already been pointed out that upgraded LFR gear is better than valor gear. You're holding your raid team back by doing dailies. Please stop that.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    To challenging is actually not the opposite of too rewarding. That's only a figment of your head. The developer quote shuts your argument down but I'll humor you some more. Mists is less rewarding than all of cataclysm, raid or not. Again if you dungeon'd you got more reward. Rep gear, valor gear and drops from the dungeons. You are grossly misinformed if you think otherwise. If LFR had been around then it would be over kill and I'm not sure why you think you can invoke lfr and say cata was only rewarding if you raided. LFR is raiding. Tee rep rewards certainly weren't pointless at launch but that isn't the point anyway. YOU WERE REWARDED better in cataclysm and the developers acknowledge this.
    Like I already stated, dungeons in early Cata were not very rewarding. You had the fact that they were long, the queues were long, and they were difficult enough that often times PuGs would fail. In fact, I remember when I went into my first Cata LFD I had heard so many horror stories that I said in gchat "going to try LFD now. wish me luck!"

    45 min queues for DPS, good chance of dungeon failure, only a small amount of valor for 1 dungeon a night so it took forever to earn enough valor to buy a single piece of gear, and valor gear not even covering all the slots!

    If you really think that was more rewarding than MoP with quick ezmode dungeons and scenarios that give valor for every single run and LFR + coins which reward you with tier gear and weapons, well, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point.

    PS: I loved the "grossly misinformed" line. As if somehow I didn't play Cata and experience it for myself. Lol. Sometimes other people have different opinions and you don't have to prove that they're a liar and you're the only correct person with the only acceptable opinion.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post

    You are holding your raid back by not knowing your class and performing at the best possible. Skill > gear. Several hundred guilds clearing content are proof. Easy to blame the design for that....we understand.
    This isn't an argument. It doesn't counter the fact that not valor capping or getting your elder charms for the week holds your raid group back. Really, its completely irrelevant.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Like I already stated, dungeons in early Cata were not very rewarding. You had the fact that they were long, the queues were long, and they were difficult enough that often times PuGs would fail. In fact, I remember when I went into my first Cata LFD I had heard so many horror stories that I said in gchat "going to try LFD now. wish me luck!"

    45 min queues for DPS, good chance of dungeon failure, only a small amount of valor for 1 dungeon a night so it took forever to earn enough valor to buy a single piece of gear, and valor gear not even covering all the slots!

    If you really think that was more rewarding than MoP with quick ezmode dungeons and scenarios that give valor for every single run and LFR + coins which reward you with tier gear and weapons, well, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point.

    PS: I loved the "grossly misinformed" line. As if somehow I didn't play Cata and experience it for myself. Lol. Sometimes other people have different opinions and you don't have to prove that they're a liar and you're the only correct person with the only acceptable opinion.


    Get some friends. What do you want me to tell you? I never had 45 minute ques for dps and that isn't the norm by and large. You keep trying to marginalize it but it's not going to work because it flies directly in the face of what the developers wanted to do this expansion. Make it slower and grindier. Which they did. Dungeons in early cata were EXTREMELY rewarding by comparison to every activity you can do in mists. That is all. You obviously have some skewed views of cataclysm lets put it that way.

    The EZness of the dungeons has nothing to do with their reward same for the scenarios. Challenge and reward are not the same. I was done with dungeons two days into the expansion at most. They are not rewarding enough and don't have enough continued reward going forward by design.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2012-12-18 at 10:34 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    Get some friends. What do you want me to tell you? I never had 45 minute ques for dps and that isn't the norm by and large. You keep trying to marginalize it but it's not going to work because it flies directly in the face of what the developers wanted to do this expansion. Make it slower and grindier. Which they did. Dungeons in early cata were EXTREMELY rewarding by comparison to every activity you can do in mists. That is all. You obviously have some skewed views of cataclysm lets put it that way.

    The EZness of the dungeons has nothign to do with their reward same for the scenarios. Challenge and reward are not the same. I was done with dungeons two days into the expansion at most. They are not rewarding enough and don't have any continued reward going forward.
    Oh yeah, I'm sure I'm the only one who had bad memories of doing dungeons in early Cata.

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