1. #1
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
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    Prot Tank: Questions regarding DPS optimization

    Hey fellow wow players,

    I'd be really grateful if you could help me with an issue I'm having in my raidgroup. We are currently 16/16 nhc and are starting to tackle down heroic raids. In our group we are tanking with a Blood DK (myself, Rhápsody) and a Prot Warrior (Saytan).
    Obviously, Blood DK dmg is ridiculous while tanking and cheesing Vengeance, our Warrior on the other hand isnt really doing that much damage at all (eg. Lei Shi -> WoL), exception being on Shek'zeer P2 trash.
    I was wondering if you could help us out with any pieces of advice or tricks for improving his DPS in general. For this purpose I can link you the latest Logs:

    Shek'zeer 10N: worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-764jbo7xdroejvsf/sum/damageDone/?s=1582&e=2124#Saytan
    HoF Boss 1-5N: worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-b3bm24osxighzdnk/sum/damageDone/?enc=kills
    ToeS 1E, 2-4N: worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1d51bek1p3i13t4h/sum/damageDone/?enc=kills

    We are onetanking Zor'lok and Mel'jarak, so on those bosses he's Fury.
    Armory Link: eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/blackhand/saytan/advanced (He may be in his dmg/pvp gear/spec)

    We'd really appreciate any comments / insight on this matter. As far as his gear goes, iirc he's hit/exp capped (softcap = 7.5% hit/exp) and with stamina gems (he told me he needs the stamina cushion atm, maybe he's not optimizing shield block tho).


    Thanks in advance & have a nice day
    -rhapso

    PS: Don't worry, I'm just posting it for him because he doesn't understand English well enough for posting here. And I'm just not experienced enough in taking on a warrior to tell him what exactly to do.

  2. #2
    Field Marshal
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    He has indeed logged out in DPS gear but i managed to find him in prot gear on Askmrrobot.com.

    I'll briefly go through some things that caught my eye at first:

    - His weapon gimps him a little. Did he use Justice Points to upgrade it to 471?

    - His gear overall is not good enough for him to reach both hit and expertise cap it seems. This will of course get better over time.

    -This has very little to do with his DPS output, but he should go for socket bonusses imo. There's hybrid gems with stamina out there with hit and expertise.

    - Personally i use the Dancing Steel enchant but i'm raiding 10 man where tank DPS matters more.
    ____

    Logs: Toes is a bad instance for checking out tank dps if you ask me. The mechanichs makes it hard to tell what's really going on if you only look at logs. At least for me as I'm not an expert.

    - He wastes a lot of Ultimatum-procs (free Heroic Strike). On the few logs I've checked he's missed roughly 25-30% of all the procs. Looking at fights where he offtanks for quite some time he doesn't seem to dump his rage with Heroic Strike either. In addition to this he doesn't use Deadly Calm enough. Do you have to hold back a lot of DPS after he taunts due to aggro?

    - Usage of level 90 talent should be better.

    - On fights lasting 5 minutes or more he only use Recklessness once.

    - He use too many globals on Thunder Clap, especially because you, as DK, are keeping the debuff up. These globals could've been used for Devastate to proc Sword'n'Board fx.

    - Heroic Leap isn't beeing used on fights like Garalon where it should be used on cooldown as he rarely needs a quick "get out of shit"-button.

    - Vengeance uptime. On fights like Blade Lord you should let him gain some vengeance at the start and then taunt so you both get the AP buff. Also to min-max he should try to intervene you when his vengeance falls off and he still has some time before taunting. Intervening you will give him roughly 15-30k more attack power for 20 sec.

    Overall it doesn't look bad at all but there's room for improvements, surely. I'm a Prot Warrior too and I'm always a fair amount of DPS behind our Blood DK for a few reasons. He always starts tanking and even though I get some vengeance at the start, he still gains more. Also the design of Revenge and how much it affects our output feels a bit clunky (let's not start that discussion here). It's on a 9 sec cooldown when not tanking and it's our 2nd largest rage-gainer. Rage we could've used on Heroic Strike. However when we do end up tanking it procs on a good rate and increases our DPS.

    Last note: Raid DPS-wise he could improve a little by utilizing Skull Banner more. I can see he use Shattering throw which is good but he could squeeze in another one often. Rembember to stack 3x Weakened Armor before casting Shattering.

    Feel free to correct me on any of my statements here but lets keep a good discussion going.
    Fat kids are harder to kidnap

  3. #3
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
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    The weapon is upgraded, im quite sure of that and hit/exp cap should be reachable with that ilvl, I could easily manage to get mine with 463 ilvl in dungeon blues - might be different as a dk tho. what sockets or gems in general do you use? do you go for max stam too or more of a mastery/accuracy mix?
    Dancing Steel is a good idea, didnt think about that - even though I think it's a bit of a waste on a blue sword.

    And yes, I have to hold back A LOT when 2tanking fights. The worst fight in that case is Shek'zeer: I have to stop damaging completely for the first 10-15sek for the first time he taunts off and at least 5-10s the 2nd time. After that we both did more than enough that I'm unable to get too much threat when playing carefully (not using my hard-threat skills, eg. runestrike, death and decay, ...)

    So basically he should use his cooldowns (esp. dps ones) more often and less Thunder Clap?
    I'm not saying he has to top my damage (esp. when I'm running with Fallen Crusader + dps trinkets), but comparing to WoL ranks there is just too much room to improve.

    Anyway, thanks for your insight Really helpful so far!
    What doesn't kill me gives me Vengeance.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...psody/advanced

    DK Guide to LK 25 Heroic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixa6Tyqd-oY

  4. #4
    Pandaren Monk
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    He's reforging and gemming needs some tweaking.
    He goes all out stamina in majority of sockets.
    Only have 6.61% hit.

    With reforges alone he'll reach ~2550 hit rating. ~2900 exp rating.
    Gems and enchants would up this(if he really pushed for caps while keeping socket bonuses).
    Red sockets. exp/hit or exp/mastery. ~480 exp.
    Yellow/blue. hit/stamina. ~960 hit.
    Prism: 320 expertise, 960 exp.
    Enchants. 160/160 exp/hit.

    So in short, yes, he could hit/exp cap if he wanted to. He got "to much" stamina anyhow :P
    (Did it all in my head, he might not be able to retain all hit/exp from gems into reforges, otherwise it should be close enough)
    Last edited by santa666; 2012-12-17 at 03:29 PM.

  5. #5
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
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    but is it actually necessary to reach exp HARD cap for a prot warrior? and regarding gems... what else, if not stamina? mastery/(hit-exp)?
    What doesn't kill me gives me Vengeance.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...psody/advanced

    DK Guide to LK 25 Heroic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixa6Tyqd-oY

  6. #6
    Never necessary, but highly advised. Also, don't gem for stam!

    160 Exp + 160 Mastery
    160 Hit + 160 Mastery

    | Warrior Moderator | Protection Warrior Weakaura Group |

  7. #7
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Holly stamina batman!

    First off WTB his gear ..and now back on topic!

    It's seems like his stat priority and rotation is slightly outdated. Stamina is most deff needed but at his gear level he should be tossing in all hybrids to get the hit cap (and in my opinion hardcap exp). Mastery at the current tier level has been shown over and again to not be the go to stat as we just don't get enough of it for it to shine. As such the hit exp cap to up TPS and ensure good uptime on shield block and bleeding into shield barrier = optimal. His mastery parry gem really tosses me for a loop as he should be using stam exp gems in those slots...especially for some one so stam happy (again all personal opinion).

    Here is my WOL for Will of the emp. Now I know that opportunistic strikes play a big role in this fight but so dose proper timing of cd's and here is the proof!
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/ayizr...?s=1982&e=2523

    As you can see I did more damage with opportunistic strike than he did but its still not my #1 dmg spell. Shield slam is my #1 and there is a couple of reasons for that.

    1) Due to glyph of heavy repercussions I try and ensure the highest possible uptime on shield block and mash shield slam whenever I can cast it and SB is up. Our fights are similar in time and he got off 8 shield blocks to my 34. As such his shield slam dmg basically takes a 50% nose dive and his glyph is almost useless as he's not keeping block up!

    2) During gas the boss takes increased physical dmg, as the first gas tends to come out at the 2 min mark you can use reck at least twice in the 9 min fight. Thus I use a macro that tosses out skull banner, pops reck, uses avatar or bloodbath (wtv I feel like that day) and I go to town. Another thing I do is rage pool right before so that I have enough rage to keep up shield block and go to town with shield slam hitting 50% more on top of the added damage.

    3) I don't see any use of execute at all and to be honest when you are dodging the abilities you can get 1 or 2 in and still have rage to shield block after the dance is done. Then again more hit exp will = more stable rage generation and the ability to time this better.

    I know you were not looking for a one fight look up but IMO you really need to go fight by fight to see what's happening. Hell I'' be the first to say on will I fuckedup pretty bad...shit dragon roar uptime because I wanted it up during gas (yet casted more than he did SW), didn't use leap (kept saving it for o shit moments during dance) etc and its only looking fight by fight that he will improve. I believe much can be done if more macro's are used... IE one of mine is pop shield block then cast shield slam right away...if block pops up BAM shield slam + heavy repercussion bonus ftw! Toss deadly calm in with HS to make sure when you rage bleed on HS you can get more off at less rage cost, etc.




    Another thing to look at is talent swapping per fight and using abilities per stage of fight.

    Comparing blade lord :
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-u5...?s=1095&e=1510
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/zfhoh...?s=8970&e=9396

    As you can see our dmg breakdown is very different. I can only find 4 executes for him on this fight yet the last 20% of the fight is just stand next to boss and kill... if your healers are having problems by all means mitigate as much as possible but looking at your logs your healers are fine thus he should be taking advantage of the free for all execute phase :P Another thing is he kept shockwave for this fight yet there are no adds and as such dragon roar is probably the better choice as it hits for a ton and the longer cd means it's easier to weave it into your rotation > constantly trying to get off SW at no rage gain!

    just a couple tips >.<

    Another thing that helped me tons..look at other prot war vids on youtube... see what they do to min max and copy it if it match's your raids style!

    My armory + youtube chan are in my sig below if you want to compare the two of us. feel free to ask any questions here or in PM's! <3 helping where I can as so many have helped me out on this site!
    Last edited by Odina; 2012-12-17 at 04:11 PM.

  8. #8
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    If I see another person advising not to gem stamina im going to cry

  9. #9
    Well, he is starting heroics now, so he will hit them with enough stamina on his gear. And he raids on 10, so even less needed. If he needs more stamina, tell him to buy a Relic (that vial is fairly... bad in any 2 tank fight. It will keep proccing while he's not tanking). In the trinkets, 1 mastery = 1.5 stamina. In the gems, 1.5 mastery/exp/hit = 1 stamina. He will get far more stats switching the trinket to the Relic (even if it's a lower ilvl one!) and then gemming for stats instead of stamina. He will be more than fine with two stamina trinkets, given he is starting heroics with 490. He will gain like 800-900 stats switching the trinket and gemming for sockets, without losing a single point of stamina if he wants it that much. He lives on WotLK gemming that way.

    Same with the meta, block one.
    Last edited by Espada; 2012-12-17 at 08:05 PM.

  10. #10
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddytheone View Post
    If I see another person advising not to gem stamina im going to cry
    Not avoid stam but at the very least hit the soket bonuses with hit / exp purple green hybrids > All stam and Parry mastery oranges . That is the only reason I ws saying holly stam batman :P Looking at 6.56% Hit and 7.51% exp while all gems are pure stam or parry/mast gems just seems wrong >.< http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...aytan/advanced

    However Listen to Eddy if he gives input...he helped me tons on elegon when I was a totay lost Tnx again for that eddy!
    Last edited by Odina; 2012-12-17 at 07:34 PM.

  11. #11
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    You are very welcome ^^ Getting Hit / Expertise capped helps an awful lot

    On lei Shi, prot warrior tends to lower damage due to spamming barrier on that rather than block, so you don't get heavy repercussions

    Overall he just needs to improve his shield block uptime

  12. #12
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
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    Thanks a lot for all the positive feedback from all of you. We'll be trying your suggestions in the next weeks and hopefully get his damage up =)
    ...At least the "Holy Stamina Batman" should be fixed fairly soon ;-) Anyway, just thanks alot!
    What doesn't kill me gives me Vengeance.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...psody/advanced

    DK Guide to LK 25 Heroic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixa6Tyqd-oY

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by eddytheone View Post
    Getting Hit / Expertise capped helps an awful lot

    On lei Shi, prot warrior tends to lower damage due to spamming barrier on that rather than block, so you don't get heavy repercussions

    Overall he just needs to improve his shield block uptime
    Pretty much this. Another thing you could tell him to consider is intervening/safeguarding you everytime his vengeance is about to run out or getting low to take a hit and refresh it. This is assuming you don't need the external cd at that point, at least.

    Prot warrior dps is fairly fight dependant, if it's heavy magic damage like 2 of the 4 ToES encounters, damage won't be massively high, however they usually shine in HoF and anywhere else that it's mostly block. His problems are generally minor and slightly L2P, beyond that there's not much to change imo.

    Again as Eddy said, I die a little inside everytime someone says avoid stam gemming ;<

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