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  1. #1

    [Arcane] Haste cap

    Im not sure if there has been another thread about this, but here it goes anyway.

    What is the cap for how much haste u can get to as arcane? I realise there are a cap for having another tick off ur magebomb, and even a cap for having 2 extra ticks, but at some point wont arcane mages end up having so much haste, they will get below the GCD while in TW/hero?

    Does anyone actually have numbers wether it is beneficial to just go full out on Haste and completely ignore ur mastery?

    As a reference to why i am asking this i wanted to put in my armory but as i havent posted enough im not allowed to do that. I have been going full out haste, but am abit unsure if/when it gets too much. U can look me up as Chaosoul on Mazrigos EU
    Last edited by Chaosoul; 2012-12-17 at 03:01 PM.

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Ismaire's Avatar
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    Since Arcane Blast was changed to 2.0 sec cast time, you would need 100% haste to hit GCD. This will be hardly possible this tier and maybe in the next as well.

    For yourself: Try to use SimCraft to check for your individual stat weights. They are hard to guess.
    Faraleya, Orc, Shaman, attuned, EU-Blackrock, 13/13 HC, 10 man raiding

  3. #3
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    If you're a Troll; Haste Cap for GCD is @ ~30% (actual figure is something like 29.5% but not 100% sure on that) under Zerking and Lust/Hero/TW.
    As far as I know, DreamSpyre currently runs more Haste than you (I think they're at the 10K mark) and they aren't GCD capped under BL/TW/Hero as a Blood Elf; so I think you're safe where you are for now.

    As for the Haste vs Mastery argument; in the long run Mastery will win out; but currently Haste does just fine.

  4. #4
    Will it still be worth it to 6 stack camp if u got for a haste setup instead of Mastery setup?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosoul View Post
    Will it still be worth it to 6 stack camp if u got for a haste setup instead of Mastery setup?
    6 stack camping favors Haste better than Mastery. Rarely do I have to Scorch weave to stay above 80% mana

  6. #6
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosoul View Post
    Will it still be worth it to 6 stack camp if u got for a haste setup instead of Mastery setup?
    Yes, it's almost more important than 6 stack camping as Mastery build. With Mastery your spells are hitting ~30% (gear dependant) harder by default, so you need to make up for this deficit.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    As far as I know, DreamSpyre currently runs more Haste than you (I think they're at the 10K mark) and they aren't GCD capped under BL/TW/Hero as a Blood Elf; so I think you're safe where you are for now.
    I love how I'm your go to reference on any haste arcane discussion lol.

    I am server transferring today, and will probably end up draenei or gnome so I'll have even more haste coming soon. I may attempt to hit the tick breakpoint at around 12k. The increased NT dps from all the haste is simply amazing on some of the fights this tier and it's just too much fun. I mentioned before that I believe I've gone for too much haste already, but it's just more fun to have such fast casts and awesome multi dotting. Although I did play and with a full mastery build on some lfr this week, I didn't notice any difference in dps whatsoever, and some fights I ended up losing stacks and not being as movement friendly, so I'll likely stay haste through the end of the tier.

  8. #8
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    I love how I'm your go to reference on any haste arcane discussion lol.

    I am server transferring today, and will probably end up draenei or gnome so I'll have even more haste coming soon. I may attempt to hit the tick breakpoint at around 12k. The increased NT dps from all the haste is simply amazing on some of the fights this tier and it's just too much fun. I mentioned before that I believe I've gone for too much haste already, but it's just more fun to have such fast casts and awesome multi dotting. Although I did play and with a full mastery build on some lfr this week, I didn't notice any difference in dps whatsoever, and some fights I ended up losing stacks and not being as movement friendly, so I'll likely stay haste through the end of the tier.
    You're the only person I'm aware of with 10K+ Haste ^^, as far as I'm concerned as long as your DPS isn't suffering I'm OK to go all out haste for a while :P

  9. #9

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    Just a double check I'm pretty much right behind DreamSpyre on most stats and just to clarify your still using Mage vs Frost Armor? or is the direct haste from Frost just better for a full haste build than the 3k mastery from Mage..

    My Mage

  11. #11
    I'm still using frost armor. I gain an extra NT tick and a better (imo) alter time rotation with it. At this point the haste build is just a quality of life upgrade over mastery.

    I'll soon have some stronger mage competition from mastery stackers, so I'll definitely post back here or in the sticky with logs and findings this week.

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    I have played both Mastery and Haste builds and my opinion is I enjoy haste heavy a LOT more. It is certainly a lot more fun and fluid as a spec, and IIRC it helps with movement heavy fights better due to the easier ability to keep up your stacks with the faster cast time. Might switch back to haste, still playing around with the idea.

  13. #13
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    I have tried both and yea find the Haste build more fluid as a playstyle but eventually Mastery should be better in later tiers so I guess its a wait and see.

  14. #14
    I haven't done these calculations in a LONG, LONG time, so please someone correct me if I am wrong on any of these points.

    All haste mods are factored multiplicatively in the casting speed formula correct? IE; Haste Rating x Frost Armor x Raid Haste x Bloodlust?

    So my math is as follows,

    10404 is my base Haste Rating.
    6908 Haste rating added from EoT Proc
    7% from Frost Armor
    5% from Raid Haste
    30% from Bloodlust

    Formula (if correct, I'm rusty) looks like;

    10404 + 6908 = 17402 Haste Rating
    17402 / 425.19 = 40.9275 % Haste (Blizzard rounds to the 4th digit right?)

    1.4092 x 1.07 x 1.05 x 1.3 = 2.0582 (Which is essentially 105.82% Haste)

    If this is all correct, then I have obviously already broken past that haste soft cap where you would be under the GCD with Lust assuming trinket proc. Now what I really need help with (Other than being sure that my math there is correct) is reverse engineering this formula to figure out the haste required to hit that 100% haste window with all the same buffs considered. I've not done this before, so I even more so need this math double checked;

    2.0 (100% Haste) = XXX (Haste Rating) x 1.07 x 1.05 x 1.3
    Leaves me with,
    1.369347 = XXX

    Now, 1.369347 is equal to 36.9347% Haste. Multiplying that by 425.19 gives me 15704.2650, which I'm rounding to 15705 to be simple and safe.

    From 15705 I subtract the EoT Proc, which gives me 15705 - 6908 = 8797 Haste Rating to GCD cap under lust with Frost Armor, Raid Haste and EoT Proc.

    That haste rating would give NT 16 ticks (21 under Lust) as opposed to the 17(22) that I'm used to now, but I'd gain good few thousand points of mastery. It'd probably be easier to just keep reforging for haste, but start using Mage Armor instead. Assuming that, the same calculation without frost armor would be;

    2.0 = XXX x 1.05 x 1.3
    1.465201 = XXX
    46.5201% x 425.19 = 19779.8813, I'm rounding this to 19780.
    19780 - 6908 = 12872 Haste Rating

    So 8797 Rating with Frost Armor and Normal Essence of Terror to basically Soft Cap, 12872 rating with the trinket and no frost armor. I would greatly, greatly appreciate it if someone would double check my math, and that I'm even using the correct formulas to begin with.

  15. #15
    I posted this in a different thread, but maybe its more appropriate here.

    Meanwhile, I've spent some time on Simcraft today to answer some questions of my own. Mostly, I've been working on challenge modes and regemming back and forth from haste to mastery is killing me. Also, I've seen good mages using frost armor instead of mage of armor.

    I'm trying to answer the question of what's better, haste or mastery, frost or mage armor?

    My armory:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...1berg/advanced
    My Reforge priority
    Int= 1
    Haste= <0.5
    Mastery= <Haste

    The following simcraft results have 10,000 iterations, style of fight, frost/mage armor, scorch/barrage
    Patch/Frost/Scorch
    115301 DPS
    Int 4.66
    Haste 2.44
    Mastery 2.63

    Patch/Mage/Scorch
    1150931 DPS
    Int 4.68
    Haste 1.83
    Mastery 2.48

    Helter/frost/scorch
    98806 DPS
    Int 3.93
    Haste 2.09
    Mastery 2.31

    Helter/Mage/Scorch
    97849 DPS
    Int 3.96
    Haste 2.41
    Mastery 2.12

    Light/frost/scorch
    110677 DPS
    Int 4.46
    Haste 2.41
    Mastery 2.60

    Light/Mage/Scorch
    110521 DPS
    int 4.36
    haste 1.68
    mastery 2.37

    Light/frost/barrage
    109873 DPS
    Int 4.35
    Haste 2.10
    Mastery 2.59

    Light/mage/barrage
    109577 DPS
    Int 4.36
    Haste 2.15
    Mastery 2.37

    From looking with my armory, Haste>Mastery, Frost armor outperforms Mage armor marginally, despite simcraft scaling mastery more than haste.
    Also, scorch weaving outperforms arcane barrage, marginally... there you go ZOMGdps.

    Then I thought, better compare the results to someone that gems Mastery>Haste. So I imported Logoz.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Logoz/advanced
    Haste- 11.9%
    Mastery- 45.81%

    Light/Frost/Scorch
    126508 DPS
    Int 4.98
    Haste 2.46
    Mastery 2.47

    Light/Mage/Scorch
    124608 DPS
    int 2.43
    haste 2.79
    mastery 2.39

    Patch/frost/scorch
    130535 DPS
    int 5.11
    haste 2.52
    Mastery 2.60

    Patch/mage/scorch
    128719 DPS
    int 4.99
    haste 2.82
    mastery 2.40

    Again, frost armor gives more dps than mage armor. Even with gemming mastery>haste, despite simcraft having mastery scale higher than haste


    *** Some flaws in my argument. Simcraft is known to over value haste in some situations, which might skew the results to favor haste or mastery. It is hard to determine in "in game" data because of rng***

    ***It is save to assume you will be doing similar dps full haste gemmed/frost armor as you would full mastery gemmed/mage armor. I would expect the former to be even better should scorch weaving be nerfed, since you will want to quickly get back to 6 stacks after dropping stacks with barrage****

    Here is how I adapted simcraft for those interested

    actions=counterspell,if=target.debuff.casting.react
    actions+=/cancel_buff,name=alter_time,moving=1
    actions+=/conjure_mana_gem,if=mana_gem_charges<3&target.debuff.invulnerable.react
    actions+=/time_warp,if=target.health.pct<25|time>5
    actions+=/arcane_power,if=target.time_to_die<18
    actions+=/alter_time,if=buff.alter_time.down&buff.arcane_power.up&buff.arcane_missiles.stack=2&buff. arcane_charge.stack>3&buff.rune_of_power.remains>6,moving=0
    actions+=/arcane_blast,if=buff.alter_time.up&buff.presence_of_mind.up
    actions+=/arcane_missiles,if=buff.alter_time.up|buff.arcane_missiles.stack=2
    actions+=/rune_of_power,if=buff.rune_of_power.down&buff.alter_time.down
    actions+=/jade_serpent_potion,if=buff.arcane_power.up|target.time_to_die<=50
    actions+=/mana_gem,if=mana.pct<84&buff.alter_time.down
    actions+=/mirror_image
    actions+=/arcane_power,if=buff.rune_of_power.remains>15&buff.alter_time.down&buff.arcane_charge.stac k>1
    actions+=/nether_tempest,if=!ticking
    actions+=/arcane_blast,if=mana.pct>86
    actions+=/arcane_missiles,if=buff.arcane_missiles.react&(cooldown.alter_time_activate.remains>4|targ et.time_to_die<10)
    actions+=/arcane_barrage,if=cooldown.alter_time_activate.remains<2
    actions+=/scorch,if=buff.arcane_charge.stack>=6&buff.arcane_missiles.down&mana.pct<86&target.time_to _die>25
    actions+=/arcane_blast
    actions+=/arcane_barrage,moving=1
    actions+=/scorch,moving=1
    actions+=/fire_blast,moving=1
    actions+=/ice_lance,moving=1

  16. #16
    Thanks a lot dementor. I had just PM'ed you looking to get that action list to compare it to mine. Much appreciated.

  17. #17
    Id still have to adapt it further. Kind of half assed since i have to go to work. Currently it has AM going off with 2 procs even if arcane charge isn't at 6. I doubt it would change the results much though.

  18. #18
    Hey DreamSpyre...I just changed all my reforgings/gems to haste, but im not sure if i optimized as best as possible. I usually use "askmrrobot" but that site values mastery over haste for reforgings, is there another site i could use, or do you know of what values i could put in for each stat? I am not very good at math, nor do i really know how to use simcraft besides just hitting the "simulate" button!

    Thanks! I would appreciate any help you guys could lend!

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Tato/advanced

    Thats my armory

  19. #19
    Just switch the values between mastery and haste and that should do the trick

    Edit : Your gear reminds me alot of mine. I've been switching between haste and mastery for testing purposes (hence the leftover mastery/hit gems). http://eu.battle.net/wow/fr/characte...s/Daa/advanced

    Could I know what numbers your pulling on say... A patchwerk style fight ? (10 NM, i'm pulling like 75k+ when i'm not failing )

    Thanks .
    Last edited by Eihwaz; 2012-12-18 at 12:07 AM.

  20. #20
    I personally use www.wowreforge.com

    And Eihwaz is right, just switch the values at the bottom for haste and mastery to be higher for which you prefer, it will do the rest.

    The addon ReforgeLite is also a really good way of doing things, especially since it will factor in the increased stats from Upgrades whereas the website won't as of yet. If it gives you a higher mastery weight than haste, just swap those in the addon as well.
    Last edited by DreamSpyre; 2012-12-18 at 12:13 AM.

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