1. For calculating hardcaps during hero(and berserking for trolls)
(If any of my calculations are wrong or I use a wrong value do say and I shall change it )
Normal mage with hero and frost armor(((2/(1,3*1,05*1,07))-1)*100)*425=15697,3
Normal mage with hero and mage armor(((2/(1,3*1,05))-1)*100)*425=19771,1
Troll mage with hero and frost armor(((2/(1,3*1,2*1,05*1,07))-1)*100)*425=5997,7
Troll mage with hero and mage armor(((2/(1,3*1,2*1,05))-1)*100)*425=9392,6
Goblin mage with hero and frost armor(((2/(1,3*1,01*1,07*1,05))-1)*100)*425=15121,0
Goblin mage with hero and mage armor(((2/(1,3*1,01*1,05))-1)*100)*425=19154,5

So I dont actually remember the exact rounding and where it happens, But at least this gives you some sort of referance. And also ain't 100% sure if the haste rating to 1% is exact 425 or 425,19.. But anyways gives you some sort of direction.

And then for NT haste caps, the work is allready done(very last lines are NT tick values) so: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ZmFYa0E#gid=39

2. Well, your numbers are identical to mine, except for the fact that I multiplied by 425.19 instead of 425. That at least helps me believe I'm at least right in my math.

I think I'll play around with dropping haste to that soft cap number with the trinket factored in and pick up some more mastery, see how the dps looks, if it will make any difference at all. I mean hell, this is all even assuming the trinket is procced during Lust which a large portion of the time it probably won't be.

3. Originally Posted by DreamSpyre
Well, your numbers are identical to mine, except for the fact that I multiplied by 425.19 instead of 425. That at least helps me believe I'm at least right in my math.

I think I'll play around with dropping haste to that soft cap number with the trinket factored in and pick up some more mastery, see how the dps looks, if it will make any difference at all. I mean hell, this is all even assuming the trinket is procced during Lust which a large portion of the time it probably won't be.
Mm, hero on trinket proc is pretty random at times, but I pop the hero nowdays on our raids so I can at least work around it a bit, and most of the dps fights still benefit from hero on start..

4. I dpsed the target dummy for 15 min 13 sec using both frost armor and mage armor.

My current set up

Frost Armor- 95353 DPS
Mage Armor- 91221 DPS

The central question to the haste vs mastery argument is, "Does casting more weaker damage spells outweigh casting less stronger damage spells?"

The following table attempts to address this.

 Frost spell count Spell/dmg Mage spell count Spell/dmg M-F dmg F-M spell count +M dmg +F dmg 270 Arcane Blast 240 Arcane Blast 223 hit 115667 198 hit 123723 8056 25 1595088 2891675 47 crit 238621 42 crit 247219 8598 5 361116 1193105 642 Missiles 577 Missiles 528 hit 35914 476 hit 38554 2640 52 1256640 1867528 114 crit 74818 101 crit 80743 5925 13 598425 972634 1035 Tempest 910 Tempest 845 hit 8163 754 hit 8683 720 91 542880 742833 190 crit 17055 156 crit 18086 1031 34 160836 579870 106 Scorch 106 Scorch 87 hit 38098 84 hit 41379 3281 3 275604 114294 19 crit 82892 22 crit 83061 169 -3 3718 -248676 1035 Tempest 910 Tempest 887 hit 4024 760 hit 4338 314 127 238640 511048 148 crit 8474 150 crit 9126 652 -2 97840 -16948 5 Barrage 5 Barrage 4 hit 184653 4 hit 198841 14188 0 56752 0 1 crit 337090 1 crit 406423 69333 0 69333 0

Column 5 shows how much harder mage spells are hitting than frost spells.
Column 6 shows how many more frost spells are cast than mage spells.
Column 7 shows the aggregate + damage from mage (how much harder x spells cast)
Column 8 shows the aggregate + damage from frost (how many more x spell damage)

In my gear, at least, frost armor is king.

Heiseñberg US-Illidan

5. Two things;

You did those two tests both as haste reforges/gems?

Column 7, AB crit damage, that's just a typo correct?

6. I did both the tests reforged/gemmed as Int=1, Haste<0.5, Mastery<Haste. I especially like the stat weight cause it allows me to go frost should I see fit. I don't really have any plans to do it mastery reforged/gemmed.

If anything, this would over value mastery... as it seems from the simcraft results, the more mastery you have the more it values haste and vice versa.

Do with it what you want. I'm not here to prove the mastery people wrong, just adding numbers to the discussion.

7. Oh no, I'm not trying to defend mastery or anything, just wanted to understand the context in which your tests were run. I love seeing more numbers added to the discussion, but I do know it's important to take any numbers anyone contributes in context.

As far as I can tell, you've gotten similar results to my dummy tests, but it's good to have such definitive numbers from someone where frost armor is better than mage.

I find your NT cleave numbers really interesting too. You do almost 600k more with frost armor NT damage, but do 17k less damage with frost armor NT cleave. The crit % is definitely in favor of mastery on that test, it's just still a bit odd at first glance.

8. My name is Koltrane...and I am a Haste man.

9. Hi Koltrane, Are you a sax man too?

10. Yes! you caught the reference! I know it's "Coltrane" but it was taken I LOVE this discussion on Haste. I have gone all Haste and had fantastic results. I agree that it "feels" right. The rotation just flows, and who doesn't like causing big damage fast and furious! I actually did an audio guide to Arcane at the end of the "Convert to Raid" podcast Number 75, but not sure if I am allowed to mention it here. Thank you Dreamspyre and everyone else for contributing to another fantastic thread on Arcane!

11. I actually have heard of a few people who mentioned that podcast being why they tried Arcane. Around what time in the podcast do you start, I'd like to listen =p

12. Sure! I would love to get your feedback! (Mods feel free to remove this post if I am violating anything, if so, my apologies) Go to converttoraid.com check out Episode 75 called "Icy Veins and the Arcane Trane" fast forward to the last 10 minutes of the show, about 2:09:03 in. Now that is Round 1, In Episode 76, I have "Round 2" where I talk a bit more on AOE etc. kind of update the guide etc. Thank you for your time! Btw you can also find it in Itunes as well under "Convert to Raid"

13. Awesome, I will definitely check it out after raid tonight. I perused it real fast, and I LOVE where I hear you say that the Fire nerfs may actually have been a good thing, lol.

14. Hi DreamSpyre, can you make a link to your armory please, i can't find it. I am 491 ilvl but can't get anymore than 7500+ haste. This is my armory http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Vmp/advanced
I assume you've gone for haste gear?

15. Sorry, I just server transferred and didn't update the link in my Sig yet.

I'm actually using the exact same gear I used as fire, the only upgrade I've gotten in the past few weeks was my Sha trinket. It just happens to have a lot of haste innately, also my blacksmithing gives another 640 haste that most people can't get.

16. Ciros, you might wanna try the Trinket that drops of Elegon (Light of the Cosmos). Pretty great trinket that offers a ton of Haste.

17. Incoming later, more details on a Haste heavy Invocation build that pulls nearly identical numbers to the RoP haste build. Tested on Dummies, Run through SimC and once I have some Logs from Heroic Tsulong tonight, I'll post my findings. But it looks good so far =p

If anyone else would like to help me out and try it out for themselves, PM me for details on what I'm trying.

Edit: I'm about 3 pulls in for the night, averaging over 15-20kish DPS higher than I was last night using RoP.

---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 05:54 AM ----------

So didn't get to kill H Tsulong, and we're done for the week so it died on Normal. I'm linking our kill pull tonight and my kill last week. I also did awesome (I think) last week and miserably this week.

Last Week:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2j...?s=5797&e=6203

This Week:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-c8...?s=9635&e=9944

Did 1.5k more DPS this week, had only one full night phase this week as opposed to two last week. (Day phase significantly lowers overall DPS when the sha's are dying almost instantly, and more time in Night Phase will raise DPS again) Also have received no upgrades between these two raids, both done at 499 Ilvl.

What I did differently this week, was use Invocation instead of Rune, set my stat priority to Haste > Haste > Haste > Crit > Mastery basically, =p. I burned using just AB and AM as soon as it proc'ed while keeping up NT. Once I hit 25-30% mana, I Evocated again and just kept at it. The playstyle will take a bit of getting used to, but this one fight can be incredibly movement heavy at times, and invocation was amazing for that. To not be reliant on RoP is a fantastic feeling.

I was sitting at 40.23% Haste fully raid buffed (Frost armor and 5% raid haste).

I'd also like to say, on one Heroic Tsulong pull, he completely bugged out, and never actually went into his first night phase. The only ability he bothered to use was Nightmares, so it basically became a Patchwerk with very slight movement. (We stopped DPS before he would have actually died, Didn't want to kill it that way) On that fight, using this build I was sustaining over 137k up until the end of the fight, nobody else could even come CLOSE. I'm not sure I could even pull that with a purely patchwerk fight and RoP.

18. Hello DreamSpyre, this was originaly a PM but I found out I cant send them yet so I am trying to catch you here or someone else who will notice my reply in this quite old topic and can provide some help.

First of all let me thank you for the math you have done in this thread. I find it very helpfull while looking for some breakpoints and I was specialy looking for haste soft cap using EoT trinket so you helped me a lot

So 8797 Rating with Frost Armor and Normal Essence of Terror to basically Soft Cap, 12872 rating with the trinket and no frost armor. I would greatly, greatly appreciate it if someone would double check my math, and that I'm even using the correct formulas to begin with.

This are the magic numbers but my question is - what is better after reaching soft cap with frost armor, start reforging to mastery or continue with haste and switch to Mage armor?

Also I was playing with your numbers a bit on wowreforge.com and I could set up my haste cap but had to update stats on every single item I had valor upgraded. I am not sure if it is just me or wowreforge has not yet covered valor upgrades. This is why I would love to use askmrrobot.com but when trying to set up my soft cap (8797) I got an error - Soft caps cannot exceed 1 (100%). What number should I use here? Can u provide some help please? Also should I set soft-capped weight slightly below mastery so it start reforging to mastery after reaching soft cap?

19. You're very welcome, glad that there are others who can use that math.

As of right now, it's basically impossible to hit that 12872 Haste Rating in order to be able to use Mage Armor, so stick to 8797 and Frost armor for the time being.

As far as your reforging goes, use the addon Reforgelite, It will factor in the upgrades on your gear and be a lot easier to set soft caps and weights on the stats. It's an awesome addon.

If I missed anything, or you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask =)

20. Originally Posted by DreamSpyre
Incoming later, more details on a Haste heavy Invocation build that pulls nearly identical numbers to the RoP haste build. Tested on Dummies, Run through SimC and once I have some Logs from Heroic Tsulong tonight, I'll post my findings. But it looks good so far =p

If anyone else would like to help me out and try it out for themselves, PM me for details on what I'm trying.

Edit: I'm about 3 pulls in for the night, averaging over 15-20kish DPS higher than I was last night using RoP.

---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 05:54 AM ----------

So didn't get to kill H Tsulong, and we're done for the week so it died on Normal. I'm linking our kill pull tonight and my kill last week. I also did awesome (I think) last week and miserably this week.

Did 1.5k more DPS this week, had only one full night phase this week as opposed to two last week. (Day phase significantly lowers overall DPS when the sha's are dying almost instantly, and more time in Night Phase will raise DPS again) Also have received no upgrades between these two raids, both done at 499 Ilvl.

What I did differently this week, was use Invocation instead of Rune, set my stat priority to Haste > Haste > Haste > Crit > Mastery basically, =p. I burned using just AB and AM as soon as it proc'ed while keeping up NT. Once I hit 25-30% mana, I Evocated again and just kept at it. The playstyle will take a bit of getting used to, but this one fight can be incredibly movement heavy at times, and invocation was amazing for that. To not be reliant on RoP is a fantastic feeling.

I was sitting at 40.23% Haste fully raid buffed (Frost armor and 5% raid haste).

I'd also like to say, on one Heroic Tsulong pull, he completely bugged out, and never actually went into his first night phase. The only ability he bothered to use was Nightmares, so it basically became a Patchwerk with very slight movement. (We stopped DPS before he would have actually died, Didn't want to kill it that way) On that fight, using this build I was sustaining over 137k up until the end of the fight, nobody else could even come CLOSE. I'm not sure I could even pull that with a purely patchwerk fight and RoP.
Hey dream,

I am at about 8.2k Haste as of right now, what do you think the threshold would be for this playstyle to be effective? I would imagine 9k or more but im willing to try and test it out to see if it would work

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