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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    1. I don't have ANY lag when crossing world zones. The reason is simple: I have SSD's installed. Solid State HD's that no longer spin but access memory directly.

    This means the "lag" is purely related to the quality of your local client machine. In other words start playing WOW on a computer instead of a 2006 type writer.



    2. EVE is clustered server from the very start. Imagine EVE having had 3K populations per server on their economy...: yep indeed dead 6 months after launch.


    3. I realise that for someone who - for some odd reason - wants WOW to die off so he/she can live on forever happy, this new cross server open world play is something of a terrible introduction.

    You know: looking at OLD posts and see ///

    ..."the open world of Azeroth is dead" or "there is no one running the old dungeons anymore" or "my server BG's are empty" vaporated after the intro of cross server play,

    so will the threads about "WOW dying thing" vaporate once Azeroth will be populated by region wide populations and no longer is dependant on purely single server play...


    I can imagine the 3rd step in CR play (after Bg's, dungeons/raids) this open world thing is quite annoying to these "whish it would die soon" guys...

    Just be assured it is a way Blizzard will develop CR further (they started it already in 2006).


    Like I said: CR trade and CR guilds are even easier to implement than seamless cross server open worlds, so a lot of people will need to retune their thread titles ... once again.


    I remember you posted it back then: the pops will slowly die off until it is no longer fun to play on all those empty servers.

    That scenario can alreeady be scrapped.


    Perhaps it is time to put on another record. Like "they killed communities now".

    Which of course is idiotic as EVE proved for 10 years now, a community is quite happy and well with 400.000 players on ONE server (cluster) too !

    the end conclusion for player fun is still the same: these threads are now rather meaningless with region wide Azeroth play.

    The lag from crossing one CRZ to another is network lag and a SSD will have very little effect. A conventional HDD is more than fast enough to load the data for one zone when crossing from another.

    Honestly it seems as if you know very little about EVE. EVE works as each individual star system is on a separate node, an individual server is capable of running more than one node, a normal node can hold about 200 pilots whereas systems such as Jita are on super nodes and can hold about 2000 (I believe there are only or two super nodes). To cross from one system to another you must use a star gate which invokes a session change timer much like when you travel from one continent to another in WOW, this is not seamless, in EVE it works as it gives a sense of the huge distances involved.

    CCP have made great progress in developing the single server technology since the games release, I can still remember when you had to email them a day in advance if you planned on having a large scale battle so they could reinforce the node, but even after ten years they are nowhere near producing what you claim Blizzard is working on.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    oh, and i used to get lag when i crossed zones once CRZ came in. and my computer wasnt built in 2006. please talk me through why the SSD makes such a difference. what extra information gets loaded from the hard drive when you cross into a CRZ zone, as opposed to crossing into a normal zone? surely the only extra information needed relates to who is there from other servers, which is going to be data coming from the Blizzard server. or do you know details of the internal workings of CRZ that arent available to the rest of us?
    The problem with slow hard disks is that the data can't be transferred fast enough to your central memory.

    Server information is limited to x,y,z positioning and simple data stats.

    ALL the rest of the info (graphical data of the worlds and avatars) comes from your local client which resides for 99% on your hard disk.

    As a result IF I wanted to port to Stormwind with a fully populated city, I load it up and get displayed in less than a second on SSD technology.

    Crossing zones for me is complete seamless due to this extreme fast loading of new world/avatar information coming from the personal hard disk.

    The actual data coming from the Blizzard servers is just reference data, nothing else. Just a few bytes per mili second.


    Good advice: the FIRST thing you need to purchase for an MMORPG is the best HD's...

    Actually you can find on You Tube THOUSANDS of videos which demonstrates this seamless playing between zones. The ones having problems are those with lousy hardware in HD's and graphic cards (500K video memory for example).

    As SSD's become very cheap these days, I don't see why it would be a problem to include it in a buget PC. For example: the IPad would be impossible to manufacture without SSD's.
    Last edited by BenBos; 2012-12-21 at 01:59 PM.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    The problem with slow hard disks is that the data can't be transferred fast enough to your central memory.

    Server information is limited to x,y,z positioning and simple data stats.

    ALL the rest of the info (graphical data of the worlds and avatars) comes from your local client which resides for 99% on your hard disk.

    As a result IF I wanted to port to Stormwind with a fully populated city, I load it up and get displayed in less than a second on SSD technology.

    Crossing zones for me is complete seamless due to this extreme fast loading of new world/avatar information coming from the personal hard disk.

    The actual data coming from the Blizzard servers is just reference data, nothing else. Just a few bytes per mili second.


    Good advice: the FIRST thing you need to purchase for an MMORPG is the best HD's...

    Actually you can find on You Tube THOUSANDS of videos which demonstrates this seamless playing between zones. The ones having problems are those with louse hardware in HD's and graphic cards (500K memeoty for example).
    Even the slowest hard disk is many times faster than the average internet connection, the lag whilst crossing into a CRZ is due to the client having to wait for data from the server.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Even the slowest hard disk is many times faster than the average internet connection, the lag whilst crossing into a CRZ is due to the client having to wait for data from the server.
    complete false.

    There are only a few bytes between server and client data in coms.. Those are only reference positioning data and coordinates (very small packets)...

    While HUGE MASSES of graphical data (100's megabytes) need to be switched between your LOCAL memory management system and graphic cards...

    The bottle neck in this case is clearly the local client HD/memory management/graphic cards.

    Proof ? You can find MANY examples of seamless crossing between zones in WOW on You Tube.
    Last edited by BenBos; 2012-12-21 at 02:05 PM.

  5. #425
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alastaircrawly View Post
    Believe what you want. Guess we will see in Feb but than you and your elk will say the same thing you said all trough cata. "It still has X amount of players".
    Which is true for most players... the majority of th eplayers do not care about those numbers the least, they're not worrying in any way, so as long as we can play why bother?

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by velde046 View Post
    Which is true for most players... the majority of th eplayers do not care about those numbers the least, they're not worrying in any way, so as long as we can play why bother?
    Yep and like I stated it: with cross realm play regrouping players from a REGION wide population, Azeroth will be populated more than ever, even when it would loose 90% of its 10.000.000 players.

    It is a conclusion lots of these long time WOW haters don't like.

    I don't mind.

  7. #427
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    . please talk me through why the SSD makes such a difference. what extra information gets loaded from the hard drive when you cross into a CRZ zone, as opposed to crossing into a normal zone? surely the only extra information needed relates to who is there from other servers, which is going to be data coming from the Blizzard server. or do you know details of the internal workings of CRZ that arent available to the rest of us?
    SSD does make a HUGE difference really. Got one during Wrath and before that loading into Dalaran was very sluggish to say the least, after installing the SSD it would load in a second or two. The reason is that once you go into a zone, the server pushes data ab out what objects, NPC's, players etc. are in the zone and then the client needs to load the relevant data from the harddisk to render all the stuff etc. Think models and textures. On a normal harddisk this takes significantly longer than SSD.

  8. #428
    Dreadlord Noah37's Avatar
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    All I know is Mal'Ganis is still booming as ever. There was significant drops during Cata, I myself even unsubbed for a period and rarely played when I was subbed. Mists has been almost a renaissance, the game feels more fresh, I actually want to get on pretty much every day, and with the people I know/hang around, they say the same things and think it is as fun as it was back in the days of BC and WotLK. But alas, that is just my biased evidence to counter your biased evidence that we argue over arbitrarily.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    The problem with slow hard disks is that the data can't be transferred fast enough to your central memory.

    Server information is limited to x,y,z positioning and simple data stats.

    ALL the rest of the info (graphical data of the worlds and avatars) comes from your local client which resides for 99% on your hard disk.

    As a result IF I wanted to port to Stormwind with a fully populated city, I load it up and get displayed in less than a second on SSD technology.

    Crossing zones for me is complete seamless due to this extreme fast loading of new world/avatar information coming from the personal hard disk.

    The actual data coming from the Blizzard servers is just reference data, nothing else. Just a few bytes per mili second.


    Good advice: the FIRST thing you need to purchase for an MMORPG is the best HD's...

    Actually you can find on You Tube THOUSANDS of videos which demonstrates this seamless playing between zones. The ones having problems are those with lousy hardware in HD's and graphic cards (500K video memory for example).

    As SSD's become very cheap these days, I don't see why it would be a problem to include it in a buget PC. For example: the IPad would be impossible to manufacture without SSD's.
    so if this is true, explain why crossing into a CRZ zone causes lag, but crossing into a normal zone doesnt. what EXTRA information is coming from the hard drive when you cross into a CRZ zone?

    your answer makes no sense.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 02:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by velde046 View Post
    SSD does make a HUGE difference really. Got one during Wrath and before that loading into Dalaran was very sluggish to say the least, after installing the SSD it would load in a second or two. The reason is that once you go into a zone, the server pushes data ab out what objects, NPC's, players etc. are in the zone and then the client needs to load the relevant data from the harddisk to render all the stuff etc. Think models and textures. On a normal harddisk this takes significantly longer than SSD.
    again, doesnt answer my original question. CRZ zones cause lag for me. what extra information are they loading compared to a normal zone?
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    The volume of new game features and content in MoP is a direct consequence of people cancelling subscriptions during Cataclysm. You're welcome.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    complete false.

    There are only a few bytes between server and client data in coms.. Those are only reference positioning data and coordinates (very small packets)...

    While HUGE MASSES of graphical data (100's megabytes) need to be switched between your LOCAL memory management system and graphic cards...

    The bottle neck in this case is clearly the local client HD/memory management/graphic cards.

    Proof ? You can find MANY examples of seamless crossing between zones in WOW on You Tube.
    As you stated there are many videos on Youtube that show seamless crossing between zones (although I'm not sure how many of them would involve CRZs), when I first started playing my P4 with 1GB ram was more than capable with loading zones seamlessly. Now I have two different PCs both with SSDs that both suffer from a slight delay when entering a CRZ. What additional data would they be loading?

  11. #431
    Subscription numbers is pretty useless information.

    Blizzard gives the total subscriber information, including asian players. And they are more than 60% of the whole wow population (maybe even more now).
    What would it be for you if 5 more million asians started to play wow and wow got 15 million subs instead of 10 million?

    Want to get the real statistics? Its easy. Gather statistics on your own realm. How many people do you have online during prime hours - thats what is most important for your gameplay.

    Wowprogress allows you to get some basic statistics as well, like how many guilds raid on your realm. You can compare this number with old wotlk-cata data. But obviously you need some brains to analyse this data properly, because mop is not over yet and in the beginning of cata much more guilds played in "true oldschool" 25man guilds.

  12. #432
    When you cross in multi server CR zones you simply load more graphical avatar information as the zone has more data of avatars in them.

    Client server coms have always been about very simple data structures like control strings or coordinates.

    All other data, 99.9% of it, is already on your local system and that system simply needs to have a good data management (of which the SSD is many times faster than a slow rotating hard disk).

    HD's, data pipe lines on your main card, graphics cards with too little meomory, etc... are the bottleneck here.

    As I said: you can find dozens of excellent seamless world travel over CRZ on the internet.

    The ones with the bad examples are those with the lousy PC clients.

    I predict that within one/two years no one uses the term "Realm" anymore as it will be an old legacy system.

    Titan will be structured with this in mind from the very start.
    Last edited by BenBos; 2012-12-21 at 02:26 PM.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    When you cross in multi server CR zones you simply load more graphical avatar information as the zone has more data of avatars in them.
    What graphical avatar are you talking about O_o. Your client gets nothing but item IDs from server. Also there is no difference if you fly into your own city with 100 people from your own server or to crz zone in means of data transfer. Also you won't get none of the other players or monster data until you come close enough to them.

    The real reason for this few-seconds lag is that you are transferred to a different server. It takes time for new server to load all the data about you(like quests completed, your phase, etc), and it takes your client time to reload all the initial data from the new server.

    Its no different from logging into a game or using /reload command, but the client does it without loading screen and does not have to reload lua scripts.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    What graphical avatar are you talking about O_o. Your client gets nothing but item IDs from server. Also there is no difference if you fly into your own city with 100 people from your own server or to crz zone in means of data transfer. Also you won't get none of the other players or monster data until you come close enough to them.

    The real reason for this few-seconds lag is that you are transferred to a different server. It takes time for new server to load all the data about you(like quests completed, your phase, etc), and it takes your client time to reload all the initial data from the new server.

    Its no different from logging into a game or using /reload command, but the client does it without loading screen and does not have to reload lua scripts.
    Of course it is an AND AND AND story like any lag issue someone might experience.

    But really: try to do the following:

    Log in on a full server in a well populated city in prime time;

    the fewer the (milli) seconds it takes to show all avatars around you, the fewer hic ups you'll see in CRZ technology.

    The internet is full of movies with seamless crossing over CRZ's.

    As I said: with a 120 GB SSD, a modest 2 Gigabyte graphics card and I7 CPU with a quality motherboard I don't get glitches.

    Let alone a "few seconds lag" : it simply does not happen on me (and thousands of video clips on Youtube prove it).

    Oh I see this is the new hot thread perhaps of the WOW killer haters.

    Just a joke. But I already see the picture...

    Laughable at best.

    You DO know "switching servers" takes ONE IP address rerout ? Right ?

    Do you know how much that that takes: type "tracert on your MS DOS editor with your LOCAL IP adresses..."...

    ---------


    Edit: In fact I just tried it in 3 different CRZ crossings and my FPS did not even show a signifiant drop in frames per second, with all settings on high, it never went below 58 FPS or higher then 65 FPS when crossing CRZ's.

    it is complete seamless on this computer. Normal since rerouting IP's on a same routed network takes indeed 1 miliseconds.
    Last edited by BenBos; 2012-12-21 at 03:06 PM.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    In fact I just tried it in 3 different CRZ crossings and my FPS did not even show a signifiant drop in frames per second, with all settings on high, it never went below 58 FPS or higher then 65 FPS when crossing CRZ's.

    it is complete seamless on this computer. Normal since rerouting IP's on a same routed network takes indeed 1 miliseconds.
    congratulations, you dont get this problem. fact is, i did. repeatedly. when crossing into CRZ zones. i first noticed it flying over the north part of org, where i would drift into ashzara from time to time. i have a very good spec computer, a high speed broadband internet. i never had any problems moving across normal zones.

    you seem to have failed to answer the question that myself and several other people have raised. you stated flat out that using an SSD would solve the problem. you never explained why. either you have inside technical knowledge of the working of the CRZ, or you have proof to back up your statement. or you were flat out making things up. either explain why the SSD will help, or front up and admit you were talking nonsense.

    of course, you wont do any of these things. you will ignore the question. answer some other question as if you were answering mine. restate the same things you have said 20 times in this thread already. chuck out another couple of bits of technical fog to try and cover your tracks. oh, and probably describe me as a "hater" while you do it. standard BenBos tactics, one and all.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    The volume of new game features and content in MoP is a direct consequence of people cancelling subscriptions during Cataclysm. You're welcome.

  16. #436
    No idea what the numbers will be but I'll be very surprised if the sub number isn’t closer to pre MoP levels than they were last earning report. Expansions only produce short term gain and that’s true of every game not just WoW, so we'll just need to wait and see.

  17. #437
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    complete false.

    There are only a few bytes between server and client data in coms..
    The issue isn't on the client, it's with the zone server. If it's swamped with hits it can't process them fast enough, resulting in glitching and lag as a player is playing catch up.

    Can put up 10 front ends to load balance for one data server, but it's still one data server having to process the calls. That's the whole bottleneck.

    When passing through 3 zones pretty quickly it can even stall the WoW client, as it'll disconnect from Battle.net.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  18. #438
    Mechagnome calmsea's Avatar
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    I think the question everyone in this thread should be asking is what relevance does knowing the current sub numbers have on anyone's lives?

  19. #439
    Brewmaster dryankem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calmsea View Post
    I think the question everyone in this thread should be asking is what relevance does knowing the current sub numbers have on anyone's lives?
    ^^^^^^^^^^ If you were here, I'd buy you a beer.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by calmsea View Post
    I think the question everyone in this thread should be asking is what relevance does knowing the current sub numbers have on anyone's lives?
    Actually people asked it earlier, but I don't blame you for not wanting to read what was essentially 22 pages of ridiculous arguing. Usually when someone brings it up, another person retorts with the fact that lower sub numbers means less content, and the overall decay of the game, thus ruining your playstyle.

    I don't agree with it at all, just warning you of what kind of responses this post will get.

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