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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Warriors, Mages, Shamans, Priests and Warlocks being (as usual) ridiculously strong in Arena does not dictate Ret viability.

    By half a dozen I mean 6. Guess we watch at different times or look for different things. Life sucks when you don't know it all, doesn't it?
    So you're comparing ret to what? Everything else just dominates it, but that doesn't effect it's viability.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Suizid View Post
    So you're comparing ret to what? Everything else just dominates it, but that doesn't effect it's viability.
    I'm condemning the rampant overuse of the word "viable". People are doing it just fine. As is standard practice with forums, though, people think that because they can't do it that the spec is broken.

    If they had never said anything about the nerf, most of these threads wouldn't even exist. I would bet a fair amount of money that most people wouldn't have been reviewing their healing numbers after every match. It would have been up to the people that don't have problems to bring it up to the community.
    Last edited by Prag; 2012-12-22 at 04:54 AM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Warriors, Mages, Shamans, Priests and Warlocks being (as usual) ridiculously strong in Arena does not dictate Ret viability.

    By half a dozen I mean 6. Guess we watch at different times or look for different things. Life sucks when you don't know it all, doesn't it?
    i suppose it would, but i wouldn't know because there is very little about ret i don't know and i'm fairly familiar with most of the ret streams :P


    now lets get something straight here. 2.2k doesn't mean something is good. you can get 2.2k with just about anything, particularly if you play on a bad battlegroup, have good gear, or have good synergy with your partners.

    the difference between a 2.2k capable player and class and a gladiator capable class and player is huge.

    is ret completely and utterly useless? no, its pretty decent. before it's heals were gutted it was probably the most balanced melee in the game. its just right now even when you consider them toning down the clearly overpowered classes ret still has some glaring weaknesses, most noticeably its synergy, survivability and capacity for sustained pressure.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    I'm condemning the rampant overuse of the word "viable". People are doing it just fine. As is standard practice with forums, though, people think that because they can't do it that the spec is broken.

    If they had never said anything about the nerf, most of these threads wouldn't even exist. I would bet a fair amount of money that most people wouldn't have been reviewing their healing numbers after every match. It would have been up to the people that don't have problems to bring it up to the community.
    The hilarious part is you don't think you're the ignorant one. Nobody here is saying Ret isn't viable because they can't get to gladiator or challenger or whatever. You're not talking to anyone here.

    It's simple math: Ret was fine before the PVP Power healing nerf and the Battle Fatigue increase. Once the PVP Power healing nerf and the Battle Fatigue increase were implemented, since Ret relies on active heals by Word of Glory (and occasionally Flash of Light) for their survivability and off-heals, they are obviously not fine at this point because off-healing is Ret's main utility. Word of Glory was just hotfixed to be more in-line to what it was before the PVP Power nerf, so Ret might be fine again.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    I'm condemning the rampant overuse of the word "viable". People are doing it just fine.
    Your understanding of the word viable is poor.
    Think of PvP like old time lumbering.

    Could an Ice Skate be usable to eventually cut down a Tree, sure.
    Compared to an Axe, is it viable? No.

    Rogues are a butter Knife and Warriors travelled in time to get a Chainsaw.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    The hilarious part is you don't think you're the ignorant one. Nobody here is saying Ret isn't viable because they can't get to gladiator or challenger or whatever. You're not talking to anyone here.

    It's simple math: Ret was fine before the PVP Power healing nerf and the Battle Fatigue increase. Once the PVP Power healing nerf and the Battle Fatigue increase were implemented, since Ret relies on active heals by Word of Glory (and occasionally Flash of Light) for their survivability and off-heals, they are obviously not fine at this point because off-healing is Ret's main utility. Word of Glory was just hotfixed to be more in-line to what it was before the PVP Power nerf, so Ret might be fine again.
    The hilarious part is you were the first person to post in the thread and have apparently read zero posts after it. Ret is fine. It was too strong before the nerfs, hence the reason it was nerfed. What metric exactly are you referring to? If Rets can be successful then what else matters? That it isn't in the same state as Warriors, catapulting terrible players to high ratings?

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    The hilarious part is you were the first person to post in the thread and have apparently read zero posts after it. Ret is fine. It was too strong before the nerfs, hence the reason it was nerfed. What metric exactly are you referring to? If Rets can be successful then what else matters? That it isn't in the same state as Warriors, catapulting terrible players to high ratings?
    Prove Ret was too strong before the nerfs.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    Your understanding of the word viable is poor.
    Think of PvP like old time lumbering.

    Could an Ice Skate be usable to eventually cut down a Tree, sure.
    Compared to an Axe, is it viable? No.

    Rogues are a butter Knife and Warriors travelled in time to get a Chainsaw.
    Yes, playing Ret is so weak right now that it's comparable to cutting down a tree with an ice skate....

    Are you really that dense? It doesn't need to be compared to old time lumbering. There are easily accessible metrics that show active Rets doing just fine. My argument isn't that Rets are better or worse than other classes and comparing classes in WoW PvP is fundamentally retarded. My consistent point is, again, that Ret is viable and that people need to stop abusing the word to support shitty arguments.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 06:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Prove Ret was too strong before the nerfs.
    It was nerfed. That's enough proof.

    Oh but wait, you know better than the development team which is exactly why you've been paying them to play their game for 5 years. Right?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    It was nerfed. That's enough proof.

    Oh but wait, you know better than the development team which is exactly why you've been paying them to play their game for 5 years. Right?
    So by your logic, since they just buffed Word of Glory for Ret, that means Ret was too weak after the PVP Power healing nerf and the Battle Fatigue increase. They buffed Word of Glory to approximately what it was before the PVP Power healing nerf, but the Battle Fatigue increase does affect most classes. The PVP Power healing nerf by itself wasn't a huge nerf but combined with the Battle Fatigue increase, it was too much. Going by this, since they just buffed Word of Glory, Ret was never "too strong" or they would've had a direct nerf to Sword of Light along with the PVP Power healing nerf.

    I know when something is obviously broken in one direction or another. Next time, think more before you post.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    The hilarious part is you were the first person to post in the thread and have apparently read zero posts after it. Ret is fine. It was too strong before the nerfs, ?
    Then let me ask you why there is a High Rated Thread in Wow Forums about Time to Fix Retribution paladin ?
    You sir have 0% Knowledge about Retribution state in PVP
    Last edited by Matrlx; 2012-12-22 at 07:17 PM.

  11. #71
    Grunt Vanadam's Avatar
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    playing a retribution paladin myself since 4.0 i can see why alot of people are abit arms in the air about this spec.

    In terms of Burst damage, on a realistic scale the spec is in a nice place
    In terms of Utility, the paladin class as a whole is up their with Rogues and the like, although it is mainly defensive utility.
    In terms of mobility, we arent warriors but with the new emancipate spell and double HoF's AND the buff to seal of justice AND BoG its hard to keep a ret paladin away.

    Theres more things to mention that a paladin niche pro's but the paladin class does need to be taken as a big picture, we have so much utility and effectively, combat resets (looking at you double HoP, or WoG CD reducing talent with bubble).

    I can kind of agree that since the PvP power nerf & Battle fatigue that FoL and WoG's are a little bad. I dont think rets healing is too low, i think everyone elses healing is wy too high. Look at the 5.2 PTR patch notes, Second wind is getting nerfed, Frost barrier got nerfed awhile back, Natures vigil has been down graded to offer less burst, enveloping mists has been nerfed.

    Besides those points Eternal flame got a ONE HUNDRED% BUFF if used on the paladin. and lets not forget that current in the live game that retribution paladins gain spell power from strength so whoever mentioned that our Flashs and WoGs would not get much more powerful is not thinking carefully enough. The AP scalling alone between T14 DG gear and T14 HoF raid standard is a gap of atleast 15,000. Thats alot of spellpower to be gotten from strength and thats not even considering the typical gear inflation that we see at the end of expansions like in wrath in ICC and especially in DS in Cata.

    TLR: ret healing isnt great and the PTR looks like its experimenting with some buffs, but paladins need to be looked at overall as the whole class has a strong basis around selfless gameplay.

    Imo we need more reliable sustained damage and slightly less burst as our switching capabilities are complete trash

  12. #72
    i hope there is a buff for his sustained Dmg , Retribution cant put any pressure whatsoever without his burst , i would love to trade some of my burst to a reliable Dpser

  13. #73
    GC, the man who sticks by everything he does, defending everything, only later to revert back or change everything once more due to being completely wrong.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Matrlx View Post
    Then let me ask you why there is a High Rated Thread in Wow Forums about Time to Fix Retribution paladin ?
    You sir have 0% Knowledge about Retribution state in PVP
    You're using something you found on the official forums as a basis for your argument and then blindly insulting me. Awesome argument. Only top quality discussions come from the official forums.

    So by your logic, since they just buffed Word of Glory for Ret, that means Ret was too weak after the PVP Power healing nerf and the Battle Fatigue increase. They buffed Word of Glory to approximately what it was before the PVP Power healing nerf, but the Battle Fatigue increase does affect most classes. The PVP Power healing nerf by itself wasn't a huge nerf but combined with the Battle Fatigue increase, it was too much. Going by this, since they just buffed Word of Glory, Ret was never "too strong" or they would've had a direct nerf to Sword of Light along with the PVP Power healing nerf.

    I know when something is obviously broken in one direction or another. Next time, think more before you post.
    You're really having a hard time planting your foot on a point. What does anything you just said have to do with Ret being viable or not?

    Pardon me if I don't take your word on the balance of the class considering, you know, you've "given up on PvP until it's fixed".

    GC, the man who sticks by everything he does, defending everything, only later to revert back or change everything once more due to being completely wrong.
    Yep. The same lead developer (or whatever his current position/title is) that is fundamentally responsible for an MMO that continues to maintain not only your subscription, but millions of others as well.

    Say what you will about his decisions, but just know you look really silly doing it while handing over your $15/month to him.
    Last edited by Prag; 2012-12-22 at 10:24 PM.

  15. #75
    Prag came to this thread and trolled us like a champion, I think he's best ignored.

    GC is known to go back and hate on what he did and how he messed up when the expansion ends, until then this is his approach -->

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