Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
  1. #61
    Brewmaster
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,316
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    i'm fairly sure i need those SH stacks to survive. you shouldn't be able to neuter my survivability mechanics by mindlessly spamming one button.
    While we're "mindlessly spamming one button", we're also firing off GCDs, and thus can't use any other abilities. Our DPS in that instance is limited to whether or not we've popped a fire elemental totem beforehand, Spirit Wolves for Enhancement, and auto-attack. Oh, maybe a Flame Shock DoT effect on the target, too.

    The fact remains that without us, there are very few mechanics that can cut off a Resto Druid's heals so they can be DPS'd down. For all the other classes, PvP healing is OP enough that you don't need your extra buffs to produce decent heals, and you shouldn't be able to remain alive indefinitely. It appears that this is what healers, when we get down to the truth of it, want. They want to be invincible, to just have to stand still and heal through anything a DPS throws at them.

    IMO, there used to be a rough formula that was observable in PvP:

    A DPS could always take out a healer, 1v1.
    A tank could always endure a DPS and wear them down, 1v1.
    A healer could always heal through tank damage without going OOM, 1v1.

    IMO, this was a fair and equitable system to work with. But I'm getting a little off-topic, the point I meant to get at was that Purge, particularly with the glyph, is supposed to level the playing field, or even give the shaman an advantage. We don't have debuffs, not in any real sense when compared to the diseases of DKs, or the curses of Warlocks, etc. Our mechanic is to take what makes you stronger, not add something to make you weaker.

    ... And no class, besides perhaps Rogues, has any right to complain to a Shaman about survivability. None whatsoever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's nothing wrong with Keynesian theory.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Inahu View Post
    While we're "mindlessly spamming one button", we're also firing off GCDs, and thus can't use any other abilities. Our DPS in that instance is limited to whether or not we've popped a fire elemental totem beforehand, Spirit Wolves for Enhancement, and auto-attack. Oh, maybe a Flame Shock DoT effect on the target, too.

    The fact remains that without us, there are very few mechanics that can cut off a Resto Druid's heals so they can be DPS'd down. For all the other classes, PvP healing is OP enough that you don't need your extra buffs to produce decent heals, and you shouldn't be able to remain alive indefinitely. It appears that this is what healers, when we get down to the truth of it, want. They want to be invincible, to just have to stand still and heal through anything a DPS throws at them.
    Defending a broken mechanic. Nice.

    Firstly, it costs 1 GCD to put up a magic buff, and it takes you 1 GCD to purge TWO magic buffs. This means that you could purge every other global and completely break any Resto Druid, Resto Shaman, Mage, Priest. And it's not like Enhancement doesn't have massive breaks in its rotation. You're normally always waiting for the next spell to come off cooldown, and purge has pretty much always been a filler, regardless or whether the target has buffs or not.

    Secondly, the tactic to kill a resto druid has never been "train the resto druid". I don't know what braindead comp you play and whether you have any success with it, but since BC the tactic has been to swap targets as a druid relies on hots and has to re-apply them every time you swap target. This is maybe not so important this season because HoTs do effectively 0 healing against burst comps, but it's not the way you should play against a Druid. You shouldn't train them and complain that your purge isn't OP enough.

    You can effectively spend 1 global on damage, and then purge the 2nd global. Forever. While your partner, be it a warrior or feral, can use all his globals on damage and happily nuke them down because they are completely unhotted.

    Anyway, to conclude, purge glyph is dumb and braindead. Don't even defend it.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyaldee View Post
    Becouse it would be no fun to purge/dispell all buffs in one click.

    OT: Purge glyph needs to go - it's overkill for resto shamans ability to dispell whille ench have enough free globals/mana to keep removing buffs all day long.
    isnt that what blizzard does already? nerf resto and ele and enha gets FUCKED IN THE ASS everytime because blizzard are clueless?

    shaman is the most hilarious pvp class, resto dominates while the other 2 specs are laughed at.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    isnt that what blizzard does already? nerf resto and ele and enha gets FUCKED IN THE ASS everytime because blizzard are clueless?

    shaman is the most hilarious pvp class, resto dominates while the other 2 specs are laughed at.
    Enhancement is doing really good now, I don't know what world you're living in, but it sure isn't ours.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Inahu View Post
    While we're "mindlessly spamming one button", we're also firing off GCDs, and thus can't use any other abilities. Our DPS in that instance is limited to whether or not we've popped a fire elemental totem beforehand, Spirit Wolves for Enhancement, and auto-attack. Oh, maybe a Flame Shock DoT effect on the target, too.

    IMO, this was a fair and equitable system to work with. But I'm getting a little off-topic, the point I meant to get at was that Purge, particularly with the glyph, is supposed to level the playing field, or even give the shaman an advantage. We don't have debuffs, not in any real sense when compared to the diseases of DKs, or the curses of Warlocks, etc. Our mechanic is to take what makes you stronger, not add something to make you weaker.

    ... And no class, besides perhaps Rogues, has any right to complain to a Shaman about survivability. None whatsoever.
    being able to take off buffs is fine and all, i don't have a problem with purge as a mechanic, its just the frequency and lack of resource cost is really problematic.

    you shut down ret paladins to a fairly heinous degree by being able to neuter their survivability tier with 1 button press. i DO need those SH stacks to survive, and that you can even if you are purging only every 4th or 5th global you can still keep me from gaining 3 stacks almost indefinitely.

    and from what i've played of enhance and with an enhance, its a pretty cooldown limited spec, you do have free gcds where you are not hitting an offensive attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    isnt that what blizzard does already? nerf resto and ele and enha gets FUCKED IN THE ASS everytime because blizzard are clueless?

    shaman is the most hilarious pvp class, resto dominates while the other 2 specs are laughed at.
    enhance is very very good right now. they are up there with ferals and warriors.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  6. #66
    Can Ret Paladins then get Magic dispell?

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    being able to take off buffs is fine and all, i don't have a problem with purge as a mechanic, its just the frequency and lack of resource cost is really problematic.
    The resource cost was the GCD. Why can't people work that out? You could also oom an enhance shaman effectively by kiting them while they were purging, to stop them from regenerating mana.

    Also, it may take 1 GCD to put up a magic buff, but in most instances a) you get the debuff due to casting another spell which has its own effect or b) you apply that magic debuff to multiple people

    Blizzard accomplished one thing with this change. Giving Enhance an empty glyph slot to put something else in. As it stands the glyph allows you to purge two buffs off one person every 6 seconds, while not glyphing allows for 4 buffs off up to 4 targets.
    WoW PvP; Where DPS are healers, tanks are DPS, and healers are tanks!

    RETH RETH RETH!

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Dundebuns View Post
    The resource cost was the GCD. Why can't people work that out? You could also oom an enhance shaman effectively by kiting them while they were purging, to stop them from regenerating mana.

    Also, it may take 1 GCD to put up a magic buff, but in most instances a) you get the debuff due to casting another spell which has its own effect or b) you apply that magic debuff to multiple people

    Blizzard accomplished one thing with this change. Giving Enhance an empty glyph slot to put something else in. As it stands the glyph allows you to purge two buffs off one person every 6 seconds, while not glyphing allows for 4 buffs off up to 4 targets.
    a gcd is not what i consider a 'significant resource cost' and ooming as enhance is about as impossible as ooming as ret unless you are forced to do a huge amount of hardcasted heals.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  9. #69
    Brewmaster
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,316
    Quote Originally Posted by iWolfBanei View Post
    Defending a broken mechanic. Nice.

    Firstly, it costs 1 GCD to put up a magic buff, and it takes you 1 GCD to purge TWO magic buffs. This means that you could purge every other global and completely break any Resto Druid, Resto Shaman, Mage, Priest. And it's not like Enhancement doesn't have massive breaks in its rotation. You're normally always waiting for the next spell to come off cooldown, and purge has pretty much always been a filler, regardless or whether the target has buffs or not.

    Secondly, the tactic to kill a resto druid has never been "train the resto druid". I don't know what braindead comp you play and whether you have any success with it, but since BC the tactic has been to swap targets as a druid relies on hots and has to re-apply them every time you swap target. This is maybe not so important this season because HoTs do effectively 0 healing against burst comps, but it's not the way you should play against a Druid. You shouldn't train them and complain that your purge isn't OP enough.

    You can effectively spend 1 global on damage, and then purge the 2nd global. Forever. While your partner, be it a warrior or feral, can use all his globals on damage and happily nuke them down because they are completely unhotted.

    Anyway, to conclude, purge glyph is dumb and braindead. Don't even defend it.
    Okay, there's no call for hostility. I'm not "defending a broken mechanic", I'm making a case for why an offensive utility shouldn't be nerfed. Your thinly veiled insults throughout your post are, frankly, disappointing to someone who at least hopes for a mature, objective discussion on this topic.

    Resto Druids' HoTs are instant, with the exception of Regrowth, and that becomes instant with Tree of Life active. As soon as they're Purged, it's extremely easy to pop them back on again with virtually no impact to their mana. You can't OOM a Resto Druid by constantly purging all their HoTs, unless they're really badly geared or something. My experience against Resto Druids might be a little different to yours, though, I exclusively play Battlegrounds, Arena is too simplistic and boring for me (I believe I already said this in an earlier post). Because of this, I'm speaking from a more specific position, about how the class is handled one-on-one or with an indeterminate number of allies/enemies around.

    "Completely break" is total hyperbole. It's not like being chain-CC'd, those classes/players can still utilise all of their abilities, they just lose the benefit of additional damage here or there. If the lack of, say, Arcane Brilliance made all casters invalids, that would be too strong an impact on both PvE and PvP for Blizzard to tolerate.

    Speaking of a slight loss of DPS, what about ours? Picking up Glyph of Purge means that we have to sacrifice that glyph slot, which could be used for a slight boost to our DPS instead, or another useful alteration to one of our other abilities. Adding a 6-second CD to the glyph means it could become more economical to dump the glyph, take another DPS boost and still be able to Purge all your glyphs in roughly the same amount of time, if not faster than with the glyph (only the glyph adds the CD, regular Purge is unaffected).


    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    being able to take off buffs is fine and all, i don't have a problem with purge as a mechanic, its just the frequency and lack of resource cost is really problematic.

    you shut down ret paladins to a fairly heinous degree by being able to neuter their survivability tier with 1 button press. i DO need those SH stacks to survive, and that you can even if you are purging only every 4th or 5th global you can still keep me from gaining 3 stacks almost indefinitely.

    and from what i've played of enhance and with an enhance, its a pretty cooldown limited spec, you do have free gcds where you are not hitting an offensive attacks.



    enhance is very very good right now. they are up there with ferals and warriors.
    Again, like I said above, adding such an imposing cast-time stands to make it more cost-effective for a Shaman to dump the glyph and potentially be able to purge as fast or faster (if you have enough Haste to reduce the GCD to 1 second, you could fire off 5-6 Purge casts in the time it would take for the standard Glyph of Purge CD to elapse) and still remove all, if not almost all of your buffs within a Capacitor Totem stun, or a Hex. With talented Frost Shock, Frostbrand Weapon, Stone Bulwark Totem, Healing Tide Totem, etc. it wouldn't be too hard to avoid or mitigate any damage that a melee class could do in that time.

    I just don't think this nerf would provide any meaningful benefit for those fighting against Shamans. All it'll do is prove to be a minor inconvenience to Shaman players. I don't want another mechanic to function annoyingly. Maybe increase its cost to 10% of base mana - remember, though, we have other abilities to use, too, and they all use mana as a resource. That'd make it more difficult to "spam mindlessly", but force the Shaman to be a little more thoughtful about when and how often to use it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's nothing wrong with Keynesian theory.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •