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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Boramir View Post
    Guess what... the option for you to be able to have all those things you want is there (who knew)!!! Just sub!
    They tried that once, it didn't work. At all. That's why we're in our current situation. So telling people to "Just sub", when clearly they didn't want to subscribe to begin with, isn't really doing anything...

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Bizzaro Stormy View Post
    Some people may complain, but most will draw analogies to other MMOs and be fine with it. And it honestly is a very clever way to allow current subscribers to "pay" EA more money, in exchange for something they want. Or, even if some subs don't especially "want" gambling packs (keep in mind, a lot of people seem to like adding a second, real-money RNG component to getting gear and items in this game), they'll still pay for them, assuming there is enough incentive. EA's job is to find exactly how little "bang" they can give subscribers for their "buck" and then roll with it. Like I said early, I suspect the remaining subscribers will gladly pay upwards of $60 a month (some a lot more, some less), and it would be stupid for EA to leave that money on the table.
    Honestly from my small personal experience (me and 5 friends) it seems that these packs was a way to get the free cartel coins from the subscribers. Me and my friend we all started with around 2000+ cc at the start of free to play and since there is nothing else worthy to spend them, we all tried our luck on this packs but none of us payed extra money for them. Its like a cartel coin sink for subscribers. A f2p player has so many restrictions to unlock that I doubt he will also pay for gambling, except if he really is very wealthy...

    Also I don't doubt that there will be people that will spend 100 dolldar/euro per month to the game and I have read somewhere that lotro had some players also spend 600 in a month! But I think a middle option is missing..Shop is either a restriction removal or a gambling packs, there is not something in the middle that is worthy and has no gambling on it in order a regular player can spend on...their cosmetic sets are awful and most of them recolors of existing ones..

    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Aye, they've been in numerous games before swtor. And I hate them in every single one of those games. The issue is that they sell, and they sell well, so they will continue to be offered in games.
    sadly, gambling is an acient sickness and it is a sure way to make money...

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    They tried that once, it didn't work. At all. That's why we're in our current situation. So telling people to "Just sub", when clearly they didn't want to subscribe to begin with, isn't really doing anything...
    And to add to this, how will they convince a player that at first decided their game is not worthy for his sub, to add a subscription by giving them the exact same game after a year with a shit load of restrictions?Do they believe that players will say "Ah this is very fun game, I was misdjudged it but now I can see how good it is" with all those restrictions?
    Last edited by papajohn4; 2012-12-20 at 10:41 PM.
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  3. #483
    yeha no thank you,

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Bizzaro Stormy View Post
    Some people may complain, but most will draw analogies to other MMOs and be fine with it. And it honestly is a very clever way to allow current subscribers to "pay" EA more money, in exchange for something they want. Or, even if some subs don't especially "want" gambling packs (keep in mind, a lot of people seem to like adding a second, real-money RNG component to getting gear and items in this game), they'll still pay for them, assuming there is enough incentive. EA's job is to find exactly how little "bang" they can give subscribers for their "buck" and then roll with it. Like I said early, I suspect the remaining subscribers will gladly pay upwards of $60 a month (some a lot more, some less), and it would be stupid for EA to leave that money on the table.
    In all honesty, TOR reminds me of SWG right before the NGE hit. The game wasn't doing well numbers wise, and LA/SOE weren't happy with the numbers they were getting so they decided to make massive changes. I think in hindsight ( and I bet SOE will agree) they should of done the same thing that EA is doing with ToR, milked the ever loving hell out of the 150k players they had left. Lets be honest, we had stuck around that long, we would have paid just about anything to keep playing. They didn't though and for some reason thought it was a better idea to throw the vast majority of those subs away and try and get new ones.

    I can't say that EA isn't being smart on this deal, they have seen their previous MMO adventures go foul, so this go around they are going to get all they can before the sub numbers get so low they can't scratch much of anything out of it. The bad thing though is the value vs cost appears to be a bit off for both F2P and Sub players.

    TBH after reading this entire thread, I came to a few conclusions that make my stomach turn.

    1. Player in some form are going to be paying for content they were told would be free. I understand that there could be some extra things thrown in to make it an " expansion ", but most people that are leaning on the fence are going to rather ticked about it.

    2. They are expecting player to pre-order for something they don't really know anything about. I know why they are doing preorders now, its the holiday season and lots of people are spending money this time of year. It makes sense from the EA side, but from the players side its a leap of faith.

    3. The cartel only race ultimatum may be the worst/most ballsy thing I've seen a gaming company say yet.

    Its just really sad to see yet another SW MMO completely crumple into obscurity

  5. #485
    The Lightbringer jvbastel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by btf View Post
    agree with point 1.
    agree with a few points from 2 - dont agree with teh point about the ops and whatever, you pay for those on other f2p games so why shouldnt they pay for them here.
    dont agree with point 3 - we have to pay for extra content, even if ppl class it as a dlc, i pay monthly for WoW and i dont get all the expansions for free so why shoud EA do it for us here.

    i think they should have something in place where ppl can earn cartel coins though, and then spend them on items like expansions, content, ops etc - sort of like you pay to be able to do hc fp and/or ops and at the end you get "x" amount of coins which you can spend at the market
    I actually don't know why I included extra character slots in the list of stuff I don't want to see in the Cash shop. I'm fine with those, and have bought 2 for GW2, I must have been sleepy

    As for dungeons/ops in the cartel shop. The problem with this is, as a developer, you want to get people to play together. You want to create a community. This means everyone should be on the same ground. F2P players and subscribers alike. If you restrict F2P access to dungeons and raids, you will have less people running your raids, and longer waiting times for those that are.
    The same is true for gear restrictions (iirc, in swtor you need to unlock epic gear? could be wrong), if you restrict how good a person can perform with gear or gameplay restrictions (action bars). You will encourage subscribers to avoid playing with F2P players.This is not a good way to get an active community going.

    The other side of the coin is, you have to make subscriptions interesting. People who subscribe provide a steady income for your company. If you unlock the entire game for free, there has to be something to get people to pay 15 a month, they won't just donate it to you.

    What companies usually do, is they indeed make most, if not all gameplay features free, and they reward subscribers with cash shop currency every month, and QoL features like XP boosts, price reductions for vendors, etc.
    Also, if you put the expansions in the cash shop, these subscribers can use their complementary cash shop currency to buy them. This is more often than not the case for F2P games.

    Now I know this might seem odd for people used to WoW/Rift that double dip by charging a fee AND asking for money every expansion. It comes from the idea that the subscription pays only for server costs, and you pay extra for content.
    THis is just wrong. Server/bandwidth costs are marginal these days. The 15 dollars per month goes for a large part to development costs (and the publisher's wallet). I won't make up numbers, but I would not be surprised if most of the expansion box costs are pure profit.

    In fact, P2P games can easily make a profit without charging extra for expansions. Several titles do that right now.
    Actually, The secret world (also published by EA!!) does this. They give a complementary amount of bonus points to subscribers, which easily cover any paid content addons.

    TL;DR: I should stop writing the long posts.
    Monk, I need a monk!!!

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by jvbastel View Post
    I actually don't know why I included extra character slots in the list of stuff I don't want to see in the Cash shop. I'm fine with those, and have bought 2 for GW2, I must have been sleepy

    As for dungeons/ops in the cartel shop. The problem with this is, as a developer, you want to get people to play together. You want to create a community. This means everyone should be on the same ground. F2P players and subscribers alike. If you restrict F2P access to dungeons and raids, you will have less people running your raids, and longer waiting times for those that are.
    The same is true for gear restrictions (iirc, in swtor you need to unlock epic gear? could be wrong), if you restrict how good a person can perform with gear or gameplay restrictions (action bars). You will encourage subscribers to avoid playing with F2P players.This is not a good way to get an active community going.

    The other side of the coin is, you have to make subscriptions interesting. People who subscribe provide a steady income for your company. If you unlock the entire game for free, there has to be something to get people to pay 15 a month, they won't just donate it to you.

    What companies usually do, is they indeed make most, if not all gameplay features free, and they reward subscribers with cash shop currency every month, and QoL features like XP boosts, price reductions for vendors, etc.
    Also, if you put the expansions in the cash shop, these subscribers can use their complementary cash shop currency to buy them. This is more often than not the case for F2P games.

    Now I know this might seem odd for people used to WoW/Rift that double dip by charging a fee AND asking for money every expansion. It comes from the idea that the subscription pays only for server costs, and you pay extra for content.
    THis is just wrong. Server/bandwidth costs are marginal these days. The 15 dollars per month goes for a large part to development costs (and the publisher's wallet). I won't make up numbers, but I would not be surprised if most of the expansion box costs are pure profit.

    In fact, P2P games can easily make a profit without charging extra for expansions. Several titles do that right now.
    Actually, The secret world (also published by EA!!) does this. They give a complementary amount of bonus points to subscribers, which easily cover any paid content addons.

    TL;DR: I should stop writing the long posts.

    The difference though is that those games, especially WoW, are solid enough and you have a large enough player base to get away with it. TBH its the old MMO formula, or at least the one thats been around since I started playing at SWG launch, so most people don't have a huge issue with it. Everyone I think at this point understands that these companies are running these games to make a profit, and as long as people feel like they are getting their money's worth they will continue to pay it.

    Its also the reason Blizzard still charges for race, faction, and server changes. Why in gods name would you give it away for free when idiots like me are perfectly willing to pay it :P

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    We haven't even talked about the fact that the potential for there to be hardly any quests, filled with lots of bonus quests is high. It's one planet, so I'm sure every meaningful quest has a chain of 5 quests that are Kill 100 of these, collect 50 of these, now kill 100 of these with this item, now kill a boss, now go back to where you came from.

    10 hours later, when the bonus quest is done you have gained a level!
    Throw in a few airlocks and we're good to go!

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by jvbastel View Post
    Now I know this might seem odd for people used to WoW/Rift that double dip by charging a fee AND asking for money every expansion. It comes from the idea that the subscription pays only for server costs, and you pay extra for content.
    No, it doesn't. It comes from the idea that creating whole new systems and art assets and animations and the like costs far more to produce than creating a new zone with already existing assets.

    There's a tremendous difference between the cost of producing "Wrath of the Lich King" and the cost of producing the Sunwell Plateau patch.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    No, it doesn't. It comes from the idea that creating whole new systems and art assets and animations and the like costs far more to produce than creating a new zone with already existing assets.

    There's a tremendous difference between the cost of producing "Wrath of the Lich King" and the cost of producing the Sunwell Plateau patch.
    This is very true. Very rarely does a game break out brand new game mechanics with patches. Rift brought out Carnage quests, hunt rifts, and dimensions. WoW brought siege vehicle combat, phasing, Pokemon-esque pet battles, etc. LotRO just introduced mounted combat. All of these things take a while to produce and can't just be patched into the system. That's usually why they save them for expansions. So far, there is very little information when it comes to this "expansion", but the question remains, what are they bringing to the table that's new? How are they changing their game? If it's just more of the same, why would it even be considered an expansion? I get it. Their strong suit is telling the story. In order to tell the story, they believe they need it to revolve around leveling. Instead, they could just make this DLC pack and give it to subscribers (charging for F2P, fo course) and keep players at 50. Introduce the next part of the story while introducing the new threat and setting up your next 4 months worth of patches. It's too early in the game for an expansion.

    Also. Anyone remember leveling on Voss? I think I got from 47-49 on that planet while doing every quest possible. If it's going to be the same size as that planet, just how are they going to stuff enough content into it that'll take you from 50-55?

  10. #490
    Banned Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    No, it doesn't. It comes from the idea that creating whole new systems and art assets and animations and the like costs far more to produce than creating a new zone with already existing assets.

    There's a tremendous difference between the cost of producing "Wrath of the Lich King" and the cost of producing the Sunwell Plateau patch.
    I hope you have seen the screenshots of Makeb. It looks like every other generic industrial building in SWTOR. Excuse is invalid.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I hope you have seen the screenshots of Makeb. It looks like every other generic industrial building in SWTOR. Excuse is invalid.
    As I posted earlier in the thread, I find the idea of selling Makeb as an expansion laughable.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    That's not the problem so much.

    Why do you get to pay half as much as me?
    He's not paying half as much as you.

    You pay $20 for the expanion.

    A subscriber pays $10 for the expansion and $13 to $15 for the month (they haven't stated a free month comes with this), this mean a subscriber pays $23 to $25 for full access.

    You pay between $3 and $5 less for limited access, but you still get full access to the story of this expansion.

    Stop playing with logical fallacies.

  13. #493
    The Lightbringer jvbastel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    No, it doesn't. It comes from the idea that creating whole new systems and art assets and animations and the like costs far more to produce than creating a new zone with already existing assets.

    There's a tremendous difference between the cost of producing "Wrath of the Lich King" and the cost of producing the Sunwell Plateau patch.
    The thing is, WoW could easily make a big profit without charging for its expansions. There are enough other games in the genre that show that.
    If the subscription fees did not pay for expansions, only for small content patches, why did we pay over 100 euros for a year of ICC? Why did we pay nearly as much for DS? Those subscription fees alone would be more than enough to pay for the development of Cata/MoP, and still have a big profit margin. Add to that the box cost of those expansions.

    WoW does not need the box cost of expansions and the only reason they still ask for it is because we're stupid enough to pay up.
    Monk, I need a monk!!!

  14. #494
    This has made me stop my sub for SWTOR. I feel like I am getting a lot more from WoW especially when they just announced the The Thunder King is Risen patch.
    Last edited by BigAssBoy; 2012-12-21 at 09:08 AM.

  15. #495
    So content that was supposed to be a normal patch half a year ago turned out to be an "expansion" for 10$ or more. Again EAware starts to spin the PR so people dish out 10 or more $ to pre order...

    Last time i checked decent game developers did extensive testing with their expansions, closed beta, open beta, ton of press information and stuff like that.

    This will be a laugh when the shit (expansion) hits the fans. EAware has a history of not keeping up with what they promise, I utterly doubt something will change with this "product".

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Madderdin View Post
    So content that was supposed to be a normal patch half a year ago turned out to be an "expansion"
    Well I'm not quite sure but wasn't cathar supposed to come with makeb? Which are now cash shop exclusive, if so they are now selling you a patch which they said was going to be free, only it now has less content (only a reskinned human as far as we know but still sort of funny) than it did when they promised it would be free.

  17. #497
    Banned Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahapenes View Post
    He's not paying half as much as you.

    You pay $20 for the expanion.

    A subscriber pays $10 for the expansion and $13 to $15 for the month (they haven't stated a free month comes with this), this mean a subscriber pays $23 to $25 for full access.

    You pay between $3 and $5 less for limited access, but you still get full access to the story of this expansion.

    Stop playing with logical fallacies.
    I'm sorry, but it appears you are playing with a logical fallacy. First we had people claiming that your subscription doesn't cover the creation of 'expansion' content, now we have someone saying that it does. Maybe the apologists should get together to have one story to make up.

    The only thing I agree with you on is that everyone is getting screwed.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I'm sorry, but it appears you are playing with a logical fallacy. First we had people claiming that your subscription doesn't cover the creation of 'expansion' content, now we have someone saying that it does. Maybe the apologists should get together to have one story to make up.

    The only thing I agree with you on is that everyone is getting screwed.
    Not everyone. If they make these "expansions" lets say every 6 months with reasonable amount of quality content, that's good for f2p b2p players. And they can do it without level increase or with whatever. It's not really important. From that point of view the expansions/dlc packs are good/great.

    The big big problem is what subscribers get and what restrictions are applied to f2p players. The dlc packs should be purchasable with coins. Subscribers should get more than $5 worth of coins every month so they can confortably cover cost of dlc packs and get some stuff from shop. F2p players shouldn't be restricted on dungeons, warzones, 5 mans or space missions, all that should be available as permanent b2p unlocks. Only rwz and operations should be p2p. The silly gear/currency caps on f2p players must be increased or removed.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 12:48 PM ----------

    They can easily go around it and just bundle up some of the bs restrictions to a big unlock bag. Maybe ppl will forget they might have paid $60 bucks for all this stuff before and will buy it again.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Zokonorb View Post
    Well I'm not quite sure but wasn't cathar supposed to come with makeb? Which are now cash shop exclusive, if so they are now selling you a patch which they said was going to be free, only it now has less content (only a reskinned human as far as we know but still sort of funny) than it did when they promised it would be free.

    Yes Cathars were supposed to come with Makeb - on Darth Hater "E3 2012: Darth Hater Interview with Daniel Erickson" posted on 6/6/2012 and even earlier - article on pcgamer "The Old Republic announces upcoming level cap, new species, new planet, and free trial" posted on June 4 2012.

    So now they are just selling the content they worked on when people still had to pay subscription and F2P wasnt even remotely considered.
    Last edited by Madderdin; 2012-12-21 at 12:44 PM.

  20. #500
    Banned Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madderdin View Post
    So now they are just selling the content they worked on when people still had to pay subscription and F2P wasnt even remotely considered.
    This was completely expected once the F2P model launched in the state that it did. It was the last time they pulled the rug out from under many people. Unfortunately others will still eat it up until the end of time and that is their perogative.

    They are also sticking to their 'promise' of 'content' every 6-8 weeks by continuously updating the Cartel Market. How wonderful.

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