Rise of The Hutt Cartel: First Digital Expansion

[RoninaThorstone]

I did put in a ticket, and I got some copy paste remark. At the time I was having fun with WoW and finally got exalted with every faction so I decided hey why not give all the free time I was gonna throw towards Pet Battles and such into Swtor and finish my Imperial Story lines. I couldn't so I just didn't really care enough if I was gonna get crappy customer Service.

Also you said, an I quote "This is just a guy who played a little, enough to know what rakata gear is, and created a story based off what he read about the f2p restrictions. "

it implies you think I was a casual player who just knew what Rakata gear was by looking at vendors. No I wasn't sir

I was implying you had raided t1.

Also, you needed to send in a ticket saying "HALP I AM PREFERRED STATUS BUT ONLY HAVE F2P STATUS"

[Arlee]

Reposting the following post because it had gotten caught in the spamfilter and people probably won't go back to see it.



Posted by Bizaro Stormy:

You think? Case in point.

Author asks if people have bought the expansions, those that answer yes, did it as soon as it became available etc. are greeted by "it's the right thing to do" "just what I did" "great attitude" etc.

Those who provide answers that are found wanting (meaning no) are ridiculed, called poor, explanations are demanded and then in turn also ridiculed, called trolls because if they have unsubbed and are posting in the forum they are obviously on some anti-swtor agenda and are deliberately creating a "disturbance" (anything that isn't unicorns and flowers) on the forum. Message? Dissent is not allowed.

Quite frankly I have never ever seen anything remotely close to the magnitude or the SWTOR fanboys.

I doubt this is the case, but I really hope that some of those posters are actual EA employees who are attempting to foster an "us-versus-them" mentality. 10 years from now we could be treated to some sort of case study documenting how profitable a small-but-firmly-entrenched playerbase can be for a MMO, and what steps a company can take to generate such a playerbase.

Of course, I'd rather have companies make games that are fun to play, that the designers enjoy making, and where the bottom line isn't the paramount concern. Where content is more than gambling packs, where community interaction is a regular occurrence, where a company gets rewarded for hard work instead of for being manipulative. That being said, it's still interesting to watch EA milk what's left of SWTOR, and to see how far it can go.

The next step will be using the Cartel Market as an alternative to actual gaming as a method of gearing up. And people will complain like hell about it. But, people will also defend it, and rip on the complainers. In the end, I suspect SWTOR will lose a few more subscribers, but will offset those losses from the remaining subscribers who give themselves whiplash getting out their credit cards to buy top-tier gear.

I just hope EA doesn't move too far, too fast, and truly find a way to alienate the remaining dedicated playerbase. This is kind of a once-in-a-generation opportunity to experiment in this type of sandbox, and I'd hate to see it end earlier than it has to.

[LordKain]

Quite frankly I have never ever seen anything remotely close to the magnitude of the SWTOR fanboys.

There are zelots on both sides.

[Deleted]

There are zelots on both sides.

Not really, unless you actually mean to say someone being critical of the game being a zealot. Because there is in fact plenty of emperical evidence of the games shortcomings and Biowares lies. There's very real reasons to be critical of the current situation. The "hating extremists" have had a nasty habit of being right about the games development.

The F2P, everyone said they'd never go F2P because they had over half a million subscribers
The cash shop, people going "well guess they're gonna charge us for Cathar and Makeb" were ridiculed and laughed at, well no one with any sense is laughing now.
It was also never going to sell power, but here we are where there are only two ways to generate high end ship parts, either you buy them from the cash shop or face a very long grind. Can they be obtained outside the cash-shop, sure but they are evidently doing very much to inconvience you for picking the latter route.

Wheras the "optimists" have been consistently wrong and facilitated outright lies to paint a better image of a current situation. Claiming Makeb was never promised for free for example, and now chanting a subscription never buys anything but server access like SWTOR existed in some sort of vacuum where no other MMO's exist.

[Redblade]

Sad to see most if not all my fears and predictions have come true at this point, both for the players and gamers as a whole, far from surprised though.

[Arlee]

Sad to see most if not all my fears and predictions have come true at this point, far from surprised though.

We were just wondering where you were

[Kelimbror]

Sad to see most if not all my fears and predictions have come true at this point, far from surprised though.

A completely accurate assessment. I've been referencing old conversations I know you took part of about where the money is going to be coming from in a F2P transition. At the time I think I defended someone's right to pay for what they want, but that's when they aren't being manipulated/'lied' to, or being practically forced into a subscription. When it's just extras, or even permanently unockable content, I can understand that current players might bear the load.

However this example of forcing subscribers to shoulder the financial burden is disgusting.

[Redblade]

We were just wondering where you were

I left this section when I was told what was a valid subject to question and not, only read through this thread to see if I was right in my suspicions or not.

[Bizzaro Stormy]

There are zelots on both sides.

Two sides of the same coin, however. The anti-SWTOR zealots are just as invested in the game as the "fanboi" zealots. These zealots may not partake in all of the ways in which EA is looking to generate more revenue from subscribers (or, as a great Bard once noted, perhaps they protest too much?) but one thing is certain: they'll continue to subscribe (to a large degree, there are of course exceptions).

If anything, the anti-SWTOR zealots just give the remaining dedicated subscribers a reason to even further entrench themselves. Echo chambers are fun, but if the official forums/gaming community was just one big love fest, I think the "fanbois" would find themselves getting a little bored. I honest believe that playing the role of martyr is some of the charm many subscribers are feeling - charm that they are more than willing to pay for.

[Deleted]

I'll be honest, I'm not really interested in the Hutt Cartel. It's definitely not what I was hoping for in the first expansion.

Having said that, I have to admit that the starting zone and story for the BH and IA were the most compelling and organic of the 8 class stories. And both were focused on the Hutt Cartel. $10 is worth it, just to see if they can pull it off again.

The latter point is true for me too - but it is still a matter of taste.

Aside from the fact that the information released makes it look like nothing more than a content patch (one planet for an expansion - I don't care how big it is, one is not a lot of variety) with another 5 levels - for a game that has been struggling, they really needed a high profile expansion to bring back interest in the game. I don't believe an "expansion" focused on the Hutt Cartel has the oomph to get more people back playing. Let alone an expansion that adds only one extra planet. From memory the amount of Jedi Vs the amount of non-Jedi players was enormous. Also didn't they already have a Hutt raid in the first big patch?

I'd like to be able to state this on their official forums, but for some dumb reason (for a f2p game) I do not have permission to post on their general discussion board any longer. It's all a bit of a clusterfuck over there.

I give up on trying to understand EA/Bioware's business decisions regarding this game.

[Parrin]

The latter point is true for me too - but it is still a matter of taste.

Aside from the fact that the information released makes it look like nothing more than a content patch (one planet for an expansion - I don't care how big it is, one is not a lot of variety) with another 5 levels - for a game that has been struggling, they really needed a high profile expansion to bring back interest in the game. I don't believe an "expansion" focused on the Hutt Cartel has the oomph to get more people back playing. Let alone an expansion that adds only one extra planet. From memory the amount of Jedi Vs the amount of non-Jedi players was enormous. Also didn't they already have a Hutt raid in the first big patch?

I'd like to be able to state this on their official forums, but for some dumb reason (for a f2p game) I do not have permission to post on their general discussion board any longer. It's all a bit of a clusterfuck over there.

I give up on trying to understand EA/Bioware's business decisions regarding this game.

I'm going to suggest that you might not want to state that on their official forums. Most criticisms of the game are met with rabid attacks, and then ignored by all. The folks that defend the game on the official forums make Kitty look lazy.

You should have seen the responses to my suggestion that they start allowing add-ons (since a lot of the neglected needs and stuff that their devs are working on could be solved without any effort on their part by the add-on community). I went back to my post to make sure I hadn't suggesting locking the doors on Bioware Austin and selling their computers on ebay.

[Morros]

Just because people like the game, doesn't mean they are fanboys, and just because people are willing to pay for an 'expansion' that some people think should be free, isn't throwing money away.

Eve Online was my first real MMO, I loved it, but at the same time I was new to the MMO world, and Eve Online isn't exactly a catering environment. Not that I wanted to be catered too, but the learning curve in Eve Online is a straight line. It takes a lot to really get far in that game, at least for me.

Eventually I checked out WoW, and I reached level 80 just before Ulduar came out. I loved the game, the feel, the world, the mystery, everything, it felt grand and the story there was something I wanted to learn about and be a part of.

Then, I found out about raiding, and everything changed. I love raiding, getting together with a group of friends, and spending hours killing things together, using abilities in fun and new combinations, trying different strategies just because, learning how other people play and becoming a cohesive unit.

At that moment, Raiding became my sole focus for playing, and why not? I was max level, so there wasn't a need to do quests or anything else unless they were required for Raiding, and it was the main attraction of the game.

However, after Wrath, WoW lost something for me, the lore, and the story just didn't feel as epic anymore, the raiding got worse in my opinion, and almost every encounter boiled down to 'one person messes everything up for 9 other people' and that philosophy is not fun. Yeah, you're a unit, you're there to get a job done, and dying is not conducive to that at all, however the draw with Wrath was that while the content was considered primarily 'easy', you could bring just about anyone you wanted and 'carry' them if you had to. Which translates into raiding with friends.

Raiding for me, wouldn't carry the same feel however without a group of people whom I get along with. It's more than just the act of raiding, and also why I don't bother to pug anything save for Flashpoints/Dungeons.

The reason I have moved over to SWTOR and have absolutely no second thoughts or regrets is because I prefer the raiding in SWTOR, and since raiding is the main reason why I play these types of MMO's, I feel like SWTOR is a better fit for what I want to get for my money. The encounter quality tends to be better, the boss mechanics are more interesting than WoW in my opinion, and I enjoy the 'raid sizes' in SWTOR quite a bit more. I never really cared for 25 man raiding, it reduces the amount of personal responsibility required and to me, is less challenging since a player death in a 25 man doesn't have as much impact as in a 10 man setting.

WoW, to me, has devolved into the developers fearing that people think their game is too easy, so instead of designing fun and challenging encounters, they design encounters that simply throw as many mechanics at you as they can without really being cohesive at all. Wrath had that for me, the encounters were fun, and the hard modes offered plenty of challenge. Firefighter anyone? Algalon, Vezax, Yogg, pretty much all of ICC.

I raided in Cataclysm up through Firelands, skipped Dragon Soul, and then started in MoP giving it a try, only actually doing Mogu'shan Vaults before I quit, the only fights out of all of that content the only fights I actually had fun doing were Elegon, Ragnaros, Majordomo Staghelm, and Nefarion.

TL;DR

In SWTOR however, I find myself enjoying all of the fights, and I've done everything on at least Hard Mode, save for Asation. The raiding content just suits what I like, I could care less what EA tries to pull with their money grabbing schemes, I will pay to keep being able to do Operations with my friends because that is the sole reason why I play, Operations. I don't do dailies, I don't do space missions, I don't do Flashpoints, and I could care less about the Cartel Market or having to pay $10 for a new expansion, it's not that large of a cost, and it supports the company that makes the game I currently enjoy playing. When my enjoyment fades, so will the money I give them.

[papajohn4]

I'm going to suggest that you might not want to state that on their official forums. Most criticisms of the game are met with rabid attacks, and then ignored by all. The folks that defend the game on the official forums make Kitty look lazy.

You should have seen the responses to my suggestion that they start allowing add-ons (since a lot of the neglected needs and stuff that their devs are working on could be solved without any effort on their part by the add-on community). I went back to my post to make sure I hadn't suggesting locking the doors on Bioware Austin and selling their computers on ebay.

hahaha, "make kitty look lazy" epic phrase and added to my books for further use!On the other side yes swtor have a lot of fanboy defenders, as wow and gw2 and cannot say for sure who does the most hard work there but the discussion about addons and/or Group finder seems to be a global debate that I see in almost any MMO that release(I am not try to defend the defenders just a note from my experience)

[Kelimbror]

*snip*

That's great. No one has a problem with what you just posted. If you posted this in your defense of the game instead of what you normally post, then people wouldn't think your attitude and critcism represents exactly what is being discussed here.

For reference:

1. Stop crying
2. Stop playing SWTOR
3. Stop posting on SWTOR forums
4. The world becomes a much better place, and those of us who like the game can enjoy it without this forum being cluttered with crying
5. ????
6. Profit

It's not elitism, it's the fact that a lot of subscribers tired of seeing chat channels flooded with complaints by people who are not paying for the game, when every single one of their complaints can be solved by paying for the game.

If you don't like what is offered by the F2P system, then don't play, that is the biggest and the best way to complain. If EAware was so excited about pushing F2P and then see people aren't playing it because they feel like it is too restrictive they might actually tweak some things.

I just don't see what there is to complain about, a month ago you could not play this game without paying $15 a month, and now you can play the the leveling portion of the game absolutely free with some restrictions. EA has never said their F2P model is designed to be competitive with other games, yet people somehow expect it to be. Mind boggling. It just goes to show that the old adage holds true: Give people an inch, and they ask for a mile.

So you see, most of your posts are attacking people or arguing with them over their opinions. I'm not labeling you a fanboy, or saying you can't like the game. But you seem relatively sane and look at what you type. The people they are mentioning make you look like you hate the game in comparison.

[Deleted]

Reposting the following post because it had gotten caught in the spamfilter and people probably won't go back to see it.



Posted by Bizaro Stormy:


I doubt this is the case, but I really hope that some of those posters are actual EA employees who are attempting to foster an "us-versus-them" mentality. 10 years from now we could be treated to some sort of case study documenting how profitable a small-but-firmly-entrenched playerbase can be for a MMO, and what steps a company can take to generate such a playerbase.

Of course, I'd rather have companies make games that are fun to play, that the designers enjoy making, and where the bottom line isn't the paramount concern. Where content is more than gambling packs, where community interaction is a regular occurrence, where a company gets rewarded for hard work instead of for being manipulative. That being said, it's still interesting to watch EA milk what's left of SWTOR, and to see how far it can go.

The next step will be using the Cartel Market as an alternative to actual gaming as a method of gearing up. And people will complain like hell about it. But, people will also defend it, and rip on the complainers. In the end, I suspect SWTOR will lose a few more subscribers, but will offset those losses from the remaining subscribers who give themselves whiplash getting out their credit cards to buy top-tier gear.

I just hope EA doesn't move too far, too fast, and truly find a way to alienate the remaining dedicated playerbase. This is kind of a once-in-a-generation opportunity to experiment in this type of sandbox, and I'd hate to see it end earlier than it has to.

I think it's interesting to see how the negative aspects of fanboyism (and conversely, those who insult with baseless negativity) has on all of us. Fanboyism in particular seems to me to be pretty out of control as they defend the indefensible causing less well informed people to perhaps be wasting their money buying a subpar product.

Totalbiscuit (whether you like him or loathe him) puts it into compelling words here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...hrooSOY#t=404s

Star Wars fanboyism is quite possibly the most widespread and most vicious towards compelling, fact based arguments. At least from my anecdotal observations.

[Kelimbror]

Totalbiscuit (whether you like him or loathe him) puts it into compelling words here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...hrooSOY#t=404s

Wow...I normally disagree with 95% of his opinions, but this is some good stuff. I actually completely agree with his statements on 'unemployed PR reps'/fanboys. It has come on us out of nowhere too.

[RoninaThorstone]

Wow...I normally disagree with 95% of his opinions, but this is some good stuff. I actually completely agree with his statements on 'unemployed PR reps'/fanboys. It has come on us out of nowhere too.

I agree with what he says.
However, the same goes for the bashers who come into forums and spread false information about games.
I've been accused of being a PR secret agent for EA for correcting false information, another type of character assassination.
Eh.
The swtor community, not the one here (at least not entirely), is awful. The people opposed to swtor can't handle the idea that some aspects of it are good. The people who like swtor can't handle the idea that some parts of the game are inexcusably bad.

[Deleted]

they defend the indefensible

You know Makeb being promised as free (and lets face it there's no way to within reason and logic interpret the E3 interview in any other way than that Makeb was to be a free content patch) and fanboys claiming that was nowhere near the case reminds me of that funky guy during the second Iraqi war who claimed there were no american tanks in Baghdad and you can see them rolling around in the background.

The fact is they re-branded what they saw as a content patch as an expansion to sell it to people. The switch to F2P does nothing to justify that, I don't care what sort of restructuring and layoffs they've have, all that just further reinforce that they are in a bad situation because they've over promised and undelivered with again and again. And that is NOT a situation that ethically justifies gouging the remaining playerbase for cash by re-labeling free updates into pretend expansions. Especially not when they already have a cash shop, which they're already in dark areas with.

They can call it a planet all they want just so they can say "we're giving you a WHOLE PLANET, a planet, not a continent, PLANET", because I think we're all pretty clear on the fact they're just zones. It is a zone, which they themselves admitted is not bigger than anything they currently have. There is no way for this to not come of as gouging, WoW is going to have a content patch they just announced, GW2 added a zone a while back. In WoW their sub money evidently goes to actually free content patches and in GW2 they don't even have sub fees.

I see no logical way to say this is all good and proper treatment of SWTOR players.

[Racthoh]

i'll play when they take the game off their shitty engine. oh wait that will never happen.

[Bizzaro Stormy]

I see no logical way to say this is all good and proper treatment of SWTOR players.

Here's the thing: so many players (granted, forums are not fully representative of the whole playerbase) will go out of their way to either completely defend EA's efforts to wring extra money out of current subscribers, or will say nothing but nevertheless pony up the dough.

I'm not even trying to be passive aggressive when I say that SWTOR players are getting exactly what they deserve, it's more of a tautology. People that don't like EA's scheme for generating as much revenue from existing subscribers will leave; those who don't care will stay. And those who stay are, almost by definition, getting good and proper treatment from the game's publisher. There are people who, for whatever reason (healthy or otherwise) like spending hundreds of dollars in a video game cash shop, or have no qualms about paying for updates that they've already subscribed for, or would gladly shell out real money for in game gear.

Soon, those people will be the only SWTOR players left, and EA will continue to give them what they want. And honestly, they will continue to pay, and play, and pay. It'll be a niche, and objectively the game will suck pretty bad, but in the subjective mind of the remaining playerbase it'll be a chance to play with lightsabers, something they're not even willing to put a price on. Which means EA will find out what the price is, and charge it - and probably make a lot more money from 100,000 subscribers than they could of with 500,000.