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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonium View Post
    To clarify on my definition of 'exploit', let me say that I tend to use terms a bit loosely; I mean no offense here. I define by 'exploit' any method that from my PLAYER'S perspective seems unintended. To put things simply, I don't think Blizzard made Frenzied Spirits vulnerable to Control Undead on purpose or that they ever imagined players would conceive a strategy revolving around it.
    I think it's totally legit to Control Undead the Frenzied Spirits and that's intended. But they shouldn't keep any stack while controlled, THAT is unintended.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonium View Post

    Other examples of things I consider exploits and that I wish to never see any competitive groups doing: finding a way to keep gear higher than 463 ilvl, skipping the long RP scene after the 2nd boss in Siege by using a gimmick to get through the door, etc. I don't foresee competition lasting if such things are 'allowed'.
    I'm going totally along with you on that, i would consider that a bug exploit clearly and simply. I'm also okay with the way Nerthfu sees things, but i beg to differ on one point, regarding a class being mandatory.
    I'm quite sure, neither of our groups would have 9/9 world firsts on challenges modes, since at the level at which we're playing, depending on the dungeons, some classes are way ahead of the others in their roles. You mentioned the dk mind control, but it could as well be a key tactic based on stampeding roar / disengage smoke bomb or i don't know what. Because of that i'm quite sure getting all world first with the same setup is virtually impossible, since you could always improve your timer by changing the classes. I think we should look at the challenge dungeons competition on the side of a " pack ", i mean by that the challenge score of a particular player, and not shatter that in 9 particular rankings, since as i said , we might see suddenly a comp with 5 dk doing SM in 2 minutes ( just exagerating to get my point ) rape the world first on that particular dungeon, but being useless on all the others.
    I think your opinion on the fact joins mine at some point.

    Sorry for my way of expriming my thoughts in english, i'm having quite a few troubles sometimes.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonium View Post

    Other examples of things I consider exploits and that I wish to never see any competitive groups doing: finding a way to keep gear higher than 463 ilvl, skipping the long RP scene after the 2nd boss in Siege by using a gimmick to get through the door, etc. I don't foresee competition lasting if such things are 'allowed'.
    I totally agree with it, and i can assure you we would never use such a feature to improve our timers. I also agree with nerthfu, but i differ on one point, regarding mandatory classes, let me explain ;
    I think we consider the subject from the wrong angle, we are trying to look at how a class can be mandatory in one particular dungeon, but for me, the challenge competition is more of a " pack ", it is the challenge score one can get over 9 dungeons, not only one of them. Just like a DK is mandatory on SM, it becomes a slowing factor on instances as Temple of jade serpent for instance. We should compare setups over 9 dungeons. As we speak, maybe some 5 dk group clears a dungeon in 3min ( exagerating a bit to get my point ), that doesn't mean they're the best group.
    However, i think keeping a kernel of players in a group and switching classes between dungeons to improve timers is not how i see the competition. Because of that, i think it's virtually impossible to get all 9 world firsts at the same time with the same group. That's exactly what thrills me with the whole challenge thing. On some instances , you'll just rape hard ( like mogushan for us ), and for instance at the temple of jade serpent, you'll cry the whole run for your dk not being some hunter, and your shaman being a rDrood, but that's part of the thing.

    I'd like to get the opinion of the challenge community tho, shall we consider all 9 instances separately, or as a whole?

    ( excuse me for my poor english grammar, you'll get that it's not my first language xD )

    See you.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonium View Post

    Other examples of things I consider exploits and that I wish to never see any competitive groups doing: finding a way to keep gear higher than 463 ilvl, skipping the long RP scene after the 2nd boss in Siege by using a gimmick to get through the door, etc. I don't foresee competition lasting if such things are 'allowed'.
    I totally agree with it, and i can assure you we would never use such a feature to improve our timers. I also agree with nerthfu, but i differ on one point, regarding mandatory classes, let me explain ;
    I think we consider the subject from the wrong angle, we are trying to look at how a class can be mandatory in one particular dungeon, but for me, the challenge competition is more of a " pack ", it is the challenge score one can get over 9 dungeons, not only one of them. Just like a DK is mandatory on SM, it becomes a slowing factor on instances as Temple of jade serpent for instance. We should compare setups over 9 dungeons. As we speak, maybe some 5 dk group clears a dungeon in 3min ( exagerating a bit to get my point ), that doesn't mean they're the best group.
    However, i think keeping a kernel of players in a group and switching classes between dungeons to improve timers is not how i see the competition. Because of that, i think it's virtually impossible to get all 9 world firsts at the same time with the same group. That's exactly what thrills me with the whole challenge thing. On some instances , you'll just rape hard ( like mogushan for us ), and for instance at the temple of jade serpent, you'll cry the whole run for your dk not being some hunter, and your shaman being a rDrood, but that's part of the thing.

    I'd like to get the opinion of the challenge community tho, shall we consider all 9 instances separately, or as a whole?

    ( excuse me for my poor english grammar, you'll get that it's not my first language xD )

    See you.

  5. #25
    The issue is that you can move around with the ghost and just release him to get some stack on him anytime you need em. Then you retake control of the ghost and proceed to kill bosses in 3-4 sec.

  6. #26
    I agree with the point being made here. Any mechanic that allows one class to have a pet that does ~750k dps can't be intended behaviour. They should programme the mechanic out and reset times set using this mechanic. An equal playing field is important in things like this.

  7. #27
    Blademaster Alogon's Avatar
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    It is almost impossible to have all class balanced for Challenging mod btw.

  8. #28
    There's also only 1 challenge where only 1 class is mandatory to get world best time. This is more than a simple class balance issue

  9. #29
    @ Alogon It's impossible to have all classes balanced for anything the way WoW is setup and has evolved, but what these people are saying is right. Any mechanic that lets someone do 10x the amount of dmg they normally would and completely negate entire bosses with it IS something that can be changed and be brought CLOSER to balance. I'm sure this isn't something that Blizzard ever intended and they'll find a way to fix it. Blizzard knows that some classes will be better than others in certain runs and certain situations and they're ok with that, it makes the strat part of challenge modes all the more interesting when trying to get server/region/world first times and it's part of min/maxing in challenge modes. Making a class mandatory to shave off 33% of a run is simply not part of "having the right setup", it's having the only possible setup, ever.

  10. #30
    Making Frenzied Spirits immune to all forms of Mind Control would solve the issue, without making Death Knights any less viable.

    It would still require an SM leaderboard reset though.

  11. #31
    how was the shaman dps? he put up ES only a second or two before the warrior pulled :P

  12. #32
    Why are people only running with 1 DK here? Take it to the point of lunacy and run with 4? Or can only 1 person control stuff?

  13. #33
    I asked it in another thread but the healer here does the same thing so I hope you can help me out:
    Can someone please tell me why all the healers use the Klaxxi amber thingies to regain mana even if they have mages in the group? If I know well the mage food and the klaxxi thingy gives mana at the same rate and you don't have to click-remove the mage food so it is a better way to regain mana in challenge modes in my opinion.

  14. #34
    hey everyone and thank's Alarinth for posting the vid about our MSP run i did not have the time to do so
    torin856 all healers use the klaxxi amber because it gives you a faster regen than normal food or drink stuf does, i know the tooltip is the same but the effect is different^^
    the songs of the vid are 1 swedish house mafia- greyhound, 2 swedish house mafia- dont you worry child and 3 pendulum- the island.
    i heard a lot of people raging on me because i didn't use the bloodbath on cooldown but well you know no one is perfect ^^, but that's the nice thing , we still have work to to and so we can stil best our own record by a couple of seconds
    i wil post my next vid as soon as it is ready, shouldn't be long before we go to challenge again so i hope it will be ready soon enough.
    i want to thank all of you for the interest in our vid and i hope we will have one of the team beating us on MSP soon so that we can try to best them on our turn
    chibrealtar

  15. #35
    Moderator Alarinth's Avatar
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    Interesting to see such devoted discussion on this. I my self did post concerns about Scarlet Monastery and challenge mode tuning a week back or so in a thread called "Challenge Mode Class Analysis?" in the general forum.

    My own opinion is that as long as something is present, it should also have been accounted for on blizzards side. As such, I don't see it as cheating, exploiting or anything similar. It is a well known fact that undeads aren't controllable in any challenge mode - except for Scarlet Monastery. Which leads me to believe it's intended. After all, why would they forget one type of mob? They've also stated in the past that they will not touch leaderboards, for the sake of maintaining integrity in the ranks. This is very understandable. One can argue that the value of a record that seems borderline illegit isn't present, but I would say their 07:42 time is just as legit as any other time.

  16. #36
    I doubt they'd do a leaderboard reset even if they fixed the Ghosts in SM. The primary reason I think so is that they (quite fundamentally if you ask me) already changed MSP's challenge modes by allowing the encounter to initiate upon entering rather than only upon entering once the preceding trash is dead.

    Don't mean to discredit you for this, but it's ridiculous in my opinion that they're changing CMs after such a long time especially when they themselves are recording the times to the millisecond where getting an entire 30 or even more seconds can easily fluctuate the time significantly.
    Vereesa of Paragon, formerly of Depraved
    WCL

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by torin856 View Post
    I asked it in another thread but the healer here does the same thing so I hope you can help me out:
    Can someone please tell me why all the healers use the Klaxxi amber thingies to regain mana even if they have mages in the group? If I know well the mage food and the klaxxi thingy gives mana at the same rate and you don't have to click-remove the mage food so it is a better way to regain mana in challenge modes in my opinion.
    The tooltip is wrong. It actually regens that mana over 10 seconds, not 20, so it's twice as fast as standard level 90 food.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-Oq0XTekcQ

    There are many really good tricks in this video. I'm looking forward to their next runs.
    (Though, as a warrior I raged behind my screen when I figured the warprot didn't even use Heroic Leap on cooldown to increase its dps. )
    Dunno if I would risk a slight damage increase for a chance at getting back hit.

  19. #39
    About the Regenerative Amber, I like using it because it seems to ignore getting-in-combat events. I often get interrupted when taking normal food and entering combat, but that never happens with the amber: you stay incased and keep regenerating health and mana, regardless of what or how your group pulls.
    Last edited by Harmonium; 2012-12-20 at 03:16 AM.

  20. #40
    Well it seems like another group decided to bind a spirit to their will. Makes me wonder if we'll ever get feedback from Blizzard on this.

    @Trah
    You say a Death Knight slows you down in Temple of the Jade Serpent, but you're only ~15s behind the current world best time, and to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if you could break the 12m mark with your comp with a bit more practice. I don't think Kizi slows you down as much as you would have us believe. That holds true for other dungeons as well.

    About comparing setups of 5 over 8 challenges (let's exclude Scarlet Monastery for obvious reasons), it would be interesting if it weren't for the fact that some players, like Nerthfu and myself, have to run with different players all the time because we can't for the love of our lives form a steady group with everyone being so unavailable. To point out what I mean, our 9 best times happened with... 10 different dps. It's not because we're trying to class-stack (although that sometimes may happen), it's because the players we know put raiding and other things well ahead of challenges. If we tried running all the time with say, our GSS group, we'd litteraly run challenges once a month.
    Last edited by Harmonium; 2012-12-24 at 09:20 PM.

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