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  1. #1

    [Arcane] Made me semi-excited last night.. then I came back to reality.

    Sorry, I hope the title is ok *giggles* but last night when we started Garaj.. I quickly got 2 arcane missle procs, trinket (DM) proc'd, weapon (Jade Spirit) proc'd, popped my on-use (~4k int), popped jade serpent pot (another 4k int) - popped AP + Alter Time - MIssles critting for over 130k, blasts critting from 540k-700k.

    I felt the true power of an Arcane Mage. My main concern(s) is that Blizz will break arcane by doing any of the following:

    * Nerf scorch to where the mana cost would be detrimental to trying to 6-charge camp
    * Nerf the damage bonus of RoP
    * Nerf AB (costs/dmg modifiers) back to pre-5.1 values (when noone really ran arcane)
    * Reduce scaling

    Since scorch weaving and clearing stacks has been seen to be negligible from a DPS perspective, why would Blizzard even consider breaking this? It's not like we Arcane Mages are completely destroying everyone on a majority of fights. Other classes remain competitive.

    What can we do, either here and/or on the official damage dealing forums, prevent Blizzard from knee jerking like they did Fire? I hate Frost PvE, they gutted Fire, they need to leave Arcane alone

    Please speak up, fellow mages! Let your voices be heard.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by munchkin View Post
    What can we do, either here and/or on the official damage dealing forums, prevent Blizzard from knee jerking like they did Fire? I hate Frost PvE, they gutted Fire, they need to leave Arcane alone
    Nothing. If they nerf it, they nerf it. Im sure most people won't lose too much sleep over it.

  3. #3
    You want to raise a petition for them not to nerf something that they have given no indication that they're thinking about nerfing?

    How about you don't go out of your way to draw attention to arcane?

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Rec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogge View Post
    You want to raise a petition for them not to nerf something that they have given no indication that they're thinking about nerfing?

    How about you don't go out of your way to draw attention to arcane?
    This is everything wrong with going to players to balance classes.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogge View Post
    You want to raise a petition for them not to nerf something that they have given no indication that they're thinking about nerfing?

    How about you don't go out of your way to draw attention to arcane?
    Blizzard is already aware of what mages are doing in terms of 6-charge camping and scorch weaving to support that. So I brought this up here to see what we could do to counter a change IF any goes through before 5.2 - I'm actually doing the masses a favor so we can be pro-active.

  6. #6
    I believe that if blizzard is going to do anything to change how arcane is currently playing it's going to be making scorch not worth casting. Probably with an increase in barrage damage, or not allowing scorch to proc missiles. I honestly don't expect a nerf to the spec, just changes that may get it back to where they want the spec to be. What they really need to do is get back to the drawing board and overhaul how the spec works in general. 6 charges is dumb, reliance on RoP is terrible, and if they remove scorch from the rotation the ramp up time will become an issue again. But other classes, for the time being, aren't really complaining, most mages are fine with the scorch gameplay, I don't see blizzard rocking the boat too much if they even do.

  7. #7
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't find 6-charge camping using Scorch to my liking. I hate fire spells and I don't want to use fire spells. I'm even sure that if they renamed Scorch into "Arcane Burst" or whatever and kept exactly the identical functionality, that I wouldn't have a problem with it. Right now it's really annoying me.

    However, if Blizzard decides to rework Scorch to make it unusable for Arcane in this way, I will understand it. What we're doing isn't really the original intent for the spec. There's even something deeply satisfying when you watch a 6-charge Barrage fly to its target and you just watch expecting a ridiculous crit.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    Well imo it shows how well we can adapt to changes and yes it prolly wan't intended but we aren't doing outrageous DMG vs other class and specs so I don't see it changing anytime soon.

    And if you think about it maybe they did think of this as being a alternative way of playing the spec..who knows.

  9. #9
    I doubt blizzard will nerf it without giving something back.. seeing how mad people are, cause the CM nerf for fire..

  10. #10
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Well none of the talents were intended to profoundly change/impact a spec's rotation or priority list. The level 90 talents do it for Arcane because of the Mana Regeneration component of the talents, not because of how differently the talents function or how you maintain them. Several people have expressed the sentiment which I agree with, that the mana regen in level 90 talents should be removed from them. That would make Arcane playable nicely with all three talents and you'd just pick the one you like the most or depending on the encounter mechanics.

    Tier one talents should work in a similar way - you use PoM / Scorch / Ice Flows at the moments when it's necessary, they shouldn't be gamechanging elements - like PoM is for Fire's Alter Time combo or like Scorch is currently for Arcane's gameplay. If Blizzard decided to nerf Scorch to prevent this from happening, I think they'd opt for "Scorch is no longer able to proc Arcane Missiles" instead of raising its mana cost.

  11. #11
    I feel as though the appropriate thing for Blizzard to do is drop back to 4 Charges, make mana costs and damage increase from charges equal to our current 6 so the ramp up time is still there, but far less unforgiving while not really being a noticeable increase in dps. They make it so Scorch cannot proc AM, and that it doesn't benefit from mastery (It would still be useful for heavy movement fights, but definitely not noticeably better than the other T1 talents). And slightly increase the damage of Barrage to make it a more attractive button that we want to push as soon as possible.

    It will make Arcane an even less friendly movement spec, but I personally always liked the idea of casters needing to plan ahead in order to maximize DPS uptime since they couldn't cast while moving.

  12. #12
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munchkin View Post
    What can we do, either here and/or on the official damage dealing forums, prevent Blizzard from knee jerking like they did Fire? I hate Frost PvE, they gutted Fire, they need to leave Arcane alone
    Well that's funny. Arcane only shines on fights with NO movement. I'm waiting for them to BUFF Arcane (even more) so it's at least playable on mobile fights.

    They won't be nerfing Arcane any time soon, like, at all. They also won't be nerfing RoP, and proof of that is because neither Fire nor Frost bothers with it due to the horrible mobility, and the fact that Invocation gives an extra 10% (and both Fire and Frost are procc-based, making the bonus damage boost much better for them, whereas Arcane is more sustained DPS)

    Trust me, you have nothing to worry about... Except for that title. I have a good feeling you'll be handed a minor infraction for it as it's quite inappropriate/sexual. (Not that I'm going to report you or anything, but should a mod see that, you MIGHT get a small infrac)

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    BTag: Polarthief#1411 (I'll only accept with notice/name is recognizable)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Well that's funny. Arcane only shines on fights with NO movement. I'm waiting for them to BUFF Arcane (even more) so it's at least playable on mobile fights.

    They won't be nerfing Arcane any time soon, like, at all. They also won't be nerfing RoP, and proof of that is because neither Fire nor Frost bothers with it due to the horrible mobility, and the fact that Invocation gives an extra 10% (and both Fire and Frost are procc-based, making the bonus damage boost much better for them, whereas Arcane is more sustained DPS)

    Trust me, you have nothing to worry about... Except for that title. I have a good feeling you'll be handed a minor infraction for it as it's quite inappropriate/sexual. (Not that I'm going to report you or anything, but should a mod see that, you MIGHT get a small infrac)
    what fights in thie tier is movement heavy??? ive managed to use ROP on almost all the fights this tier without a hassel (even before 5.1 rop changes >_>) fights like sha/will/garalon 10man IW is better than rop

    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Personally, I don't find 6-charge camping using Scorch to my liking. I hate fire spells and I don't want to use fire spells. I'm even sure that if they renamed Scorch into "Arcane Burst" or whatever and kept exactly the identical functionality, that I wouldn't have a problem with it. Right now it's really annoying me.

    However, if Blizzard decides to rework Scorch to make it unusable for Arcane in this way, I will understand it. What we're doing isn't really the original intent for the spec. There's even something deeply satisfying when you watch a 6-charge Barrage fly to its target and you just watch expecting a ridiculous crit.
    eh i hate freaking 6 arcane charge camping. it doesnt even feel like a proper rotation just another dumbbed down rng.

    @ OP increase mana cost of scorch or decrease proc chance from scorch would fix this issue imo

    right now POM is probably dps loss because you lose mana without gaining it back from our passive (nether attunement) should have it instant and mana free and icy flow is uhhhh too long cd lol
    Last edited by Soulstrike; 2012-12-20 at 05:32 AM.

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Rinoa's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind it so much if Scorch was made unviable for use in Arcanes main spell priorities when standing still. If that happens though I'd love compensation along the lines of "Arcane Charges now increases the Critical Strike Chance of Arcane Barrage by 7%/14%/21%/28%/35%/42%". There is something very satisfying about seeing gigantic ABarr crits. Last night on Imperial Vizier heroic I got a 699k crit. My jaw dropped. ^_^

  15. #15
    I think the main problem with arcane and rop is that u bypass the mastery. So i think one good solution is to change the manareg from rop. Instead of a flat bonus to manareg it could be something like "the less mana u have the more manareg u get". So it would be impossible to only sit there and camp at 6 stacks because at nearly full mana u have a bad manareg.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    I think the main problem with arcane and rop is that u bypass the mastery. So i think one good solution is to change the manareg from rop. Instead of a flat bonus to manareg it could be something like "the less mana u have the more manareg u get". So it would be impossible to only sit there and camp at 6 stacks because at nearly full mana u have a bad manareg.
    hmmm this is pretty neat idea O.o

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    what fights in thie tier is movement heavy??? ive managed to use ROP on almost all the fights this tier without a hassel (even before 5.1 rop changes >_>) fights like sha/will/garalon 10man IW is better than rop
    Seeing that you have downed will.. I dont get how you can say IW is better... I mean you got to do something wrong, cause I had 88% uptime on RoP last time I was on the kill.. and even that time I had to move a few times cause sparks got into the raid and 2 of the courages went for the boss tanks.. That said.. I would like to add blade lord heroic as 10 man for things that are really annoying with RoP, if rng is really not with you.. you end up putting new rop down a lot.

    That all said though even on fights that RoP could be used, the movement and a bit lower uptime on RoP just destroys arcane dps, just look at Zor'lok heroic for example, I can get to p2 till the echo spawns with allmost full uptimes apart from attenuation on 2nd platform, but if you dont kill the echo.. the rings and green globs floating around just hammers your dps down.. its allmost worth going IW for the fight and have a lot lower dps on the start just to have the mana regen and higher damage boost uptime in P2.. but then again its farm boss for us now, so i can pretty much soak a ring on 2nd platform and trigger iw with the green cloud on 3rd platform now, and then hit rings in p2 to keep the buff up, but for progress you just cant do that, cause it risks a wipe on a really good try..

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Seeing that you have downed will.. I dont get how you can say IW is better... I mean you got to do something wrong, cause I had 88% uptime on RoP last time I was on the kill.. and even that time I had to move a few times cause sparks got into the raid and 2 of the courages went for the boss tanks.. That said.. I would like to add blade lord heroic as 10 man for things that are really annoying with RoP, if rng is really not with you.. you end up putting new rop down a lot.

    That all said though even on fights that RoP could be used, the movement and a bit lower uptime on RoP just destroys arcane dps, just look at Zor'lok heroic for example, I can get to p2 till the echo spawns with allmost full uptimes apart from attenuation on 2nd platform, but if you dont kill the echo.. the rings and green globs floating around just hammers your dps down.. its allmost worth going IW for the fight and have a lot lower dps on the start just to have the mana regen and higher damage boost uptime in P2.. but then again its farm boss for us now, so i can pretty much soak a ring on 2nd platform and trigger iw with the green cloud on 3rd platform now, and then hit rings in p2 to keep the buff up, but for progress you just cant do that, cause it risks a wipe on a really good try..
    u in 10 or 25man?? i was on cc duty and slowing the courage duty so heaps of movement going on. also we aoe the 4 rages down so "bursting" from IW would be better than rop imo but differenet strat uses different talent right??

    and zorlok heroic havent done it in heroic but do you refresh your charges by arcane explosion?? did 115k dps on (normal lol) on 25man (changed guild)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    u in 10 or 25man?? i was on cc duty and slowing the courage duty so heaps of movement going on. also we aoe the 4 rages down so "bursting" from IW would be better than rop imo but differenet strat uses different talent right??

    and zorlok heroic havent done it in heroic but do you refresh your charges by arcane explosion?? did 115k dps on (normal lol) on 25man (changed guild)
    You are quite right on the different talent for different strat part.. But my post was a bit ignorant to the fact that people do different tactics and while it makes no sense to me, it might for them. So sorry for that

    So ye for Will I've done it on both 10 and 25 and they arent too different.. Like in your case you get the shitty job of cc as an arcane mage which is pretty funny on its own(I guess you have no hunters?), And as for courage, If your non-boss tanks do it right, courage will go through the raid to the strenght spawn platform, meaning slowing it down or dps'ing it will be on the back burner till it comes to the raid and then just quick switch from everyone and it dies real quick..

    And as for Zor'lok hc refreshing stacks with AE is pretty much the only option, I mean you could cast AM and cancel the cast to apply a charge, but thats a GCD that does no damage to the boss and you loose 1 AM stack, The other option is just to Barrage, but I found that the ramp up times and how often you had to do it was just too high for it to be really feasible.. But in reality.. nowdays it doesnt really matter even on Zor'lok what you do as long as you pull your weight in order to clear the enrage and keep yourself alive so the boss dies before the berserk..

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    You are quite right on the different talent for different strat part.. But my post was a bit ignorant to the fact that people do different tactics and while it makes no sense to me, it might for them. So sorry for that

    So ye for Will I've done it on both 10 and 25 and they arent too different.. Like in your case you get the shitty job of cc as an arcane mage which is pretty funny on its own(I guess you have no hunters?), And as for courage, If your non-boss tanks do it right, courage will go through the raid to the strenght spawn platform, meaning slowing it down or dps'ing it will be on the back burner till it comes to the raid and then just quick switch from everyone and it dies real quick..

    And as for Zor'lok hc refreshing stacks with AE is pretty much the only option, I mean you could cast AM and cancel the cast to apply a charge, but thats a GCD that does no damage to the boss and you loose 1 AM stack, The other option is just to Barrage, but I found that the ramp up times and how often you had to do it was just too high for it to be really feasible.. But in reality.. nowdays it doesnt really matter even on Zor'lok what you do as long as you pull your weight in order to clear the enrage and keep yourself alive so the boss dies before the berserk..
    Arcane missles does not apply the stack until 3 sets of missles hit the target.

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