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  1. #21
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    You get the charge whenever you stop casting Missiles, whether it's instantly, after 3 sets of missiles or after all 5.

    Edit: someone actually reported the thread name so I changed it to be slightly more politically correct. Try not to have everything offend you.
    Last edited by Shangalar; 2012-12-21 at 08:29 AM.

  2. #22
    IIRC they are working on IW and Invo which will make the play style different for those who think there are heavy movement fights...
    Last edited by andain; 2012-12-22 at 02:07 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by andain View Post
    IIRC they are working on IW and Invo which will make the play style different for those who think there are heavy movement fights...
    Invo and IW aren't a problem for heavy movement fights, RoP is

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Invo and IW aren't a problem for heavy movement fights, RoP is
    Yes... so if you think there are a lot of movement heavy fights you can use a reworked Invo or IW.
    Though I still don't see how a chunk of mana returned is ever going to be more useful to Arcane than mana over time.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Yes... so if you think there are a lot of movement heavy fights you can use a reworked Invo or IW.
    Though I still don't see how a chunk of mana returned is ever going to be more useful to Arcane than mana over time.
    You can use them, but you have to stay put to build up stacks all the time with the nerfed scorch

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Yes... so if you think there are a lot of movement heavy fights you can use a reworked Invo or IW.
    Though I still don't see how a chunk of mana returned is ever going to be more useful to Arcane than mana over time.
    For arcange, IW only works on certain fight, and Invo seemed totally useless, thought i've seen someone here made some test and may have found a way to make it usable.

    RoP is mandatory on almost every fight for arcane mage, and thats dumb.

  7. #27
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    It was schwarzkopf who played Scorch-Invocation long before the buffs which allowed Scorch-RoP. However, after his initial explanation what he was doing, I don't remember seeing any follow-up discussions.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    For arcange, IW only works on certain fight, and Invo seemed totally useless, thought i've seen someone here made some test and may have found a way to make it usable.

    RoP is mandatory on almost every fight for arcane mage, and thats dumb.
    That's why they are being reworked?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    That's why they are being reworked?
    I know they will, i'm just waiting to see what they'll do with RoP )

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    For arcange, IW only works on certain fight, and Invo seemed totally useless, thought i've seen someone here made some test and may have found a way to make it usable.

    RoP is mandatory on almost every fight for arcane mage, and thats dumb.
    I found a way to make invocation usable. The buff to it next patch will only make it even better. I'm actually excited.

  11. #31
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Nothing ever said that you needed to use the whole invocation everytime.
    If you're forced to move all the time, and don't want incanters ward..

    Do your burst.. get unlucky? even 1 tick of invocation gives some mana back. Better to fly off a 100% mana, AT/AP burst, then a 90% right?
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    Nothing ever said that you needed to use the whole invocation everytime.
    If you're forced to move all the time, and don't want incanters ward..

    Do your burst.. get unlucky? even 1 tick of invocation gives some mana back. Better to fly off a 100% mana, AT/AP burst, then a 90% right?
    I'm not sure if that was just a blanket comment or directed at me, lol. Think about this, if you have as little mastery as possible, the damage lost from burning to low mana percentages is low in turn. How much more damage then, do you gain by casting nothing but 6 stack missiles and blasts with such little mastery? Even better, how nice do you think that would be, when evocation is down to less than a 2 second channel? The damage reduction to invocation is roughly made up by the less time you spend casting it, so it's almost a wash.
    Last edited by DreamSpyre; 2012-12-22 at 09:00 PM.

  13. #33
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Wasn't directly at you I got a bit confused half way throught..

    Even with lower amounts of mana, either way you look at it, you're still gonna have a decent % for mastery.. every little bit of mana will help.

    The more haste you have, the more mana you burn.

    Arcane Mastery is worded so loosely though... "up to X%" with a base of 16% I think? (if x=50) 50% @ 100% mana, and 16% 0% mana ?
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  14. #34
    Our mastery is a flat increase to spell damage based on your mana. So it's 16% base, meaning at 100% mana you do 16% more damage, and at 0% mana you do no extra damage. As of right now, fully raid buffed I get 30.5% increased damage from my mastery (I've gotten rid of as much as possible). I've been burning down to roughly 30% mana, so I lose around 20-21% of my damage as I decrease in mana burning the way I have been. But with all the extra AB's and Missiles i'm throwing in there, I'm seeing a net damage increase because AB definitely hits about 50-100% harder than Scorch would. What's amazing to me about it, is if I'm evocating during lust, or EoT proc, it's a sub 3 second cast already. When this Invocation change goes in, I'll be sub 2 second Evocates all the time, and pretty damn close to 1.3 seconds during lust. That's a trade off I will GLADLY take any day, even with the 10% damage loss off the top of Evocation.

    Mastery is still an increase in damage across the board, but by using as little of it as humanly possible, I'm hurting myself a lot less than people would expect by burning low. Not to mention you add in the fantastic benefits of being to move constantly and not have to always drop RoP all the damn time which in turn saves more GCD's to cast AB and such with. I "FEEL" as though it is a more streamlined rotation for arcane, and that it will be competitive with the RoP Barrage clearing style that will come next patch, if not better. I really want to do more testing with it but we're done for the week. I'd kill to have some others help me test it on some of the encounters and see what they have to say. Hell, even just RealID with me and CRZ on some dummies would be a fantastic test.

  15. #35
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    I've been bending my mind on simcraft for the last hour or so...

    Haste.. evocation.. better then I ever would have thought..
    Int gets very valuable also
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  16. #36
    Finally someone whose turning into a believer! Soon I will have an ARMY!

    lol, but really, it works great in raid settings too. I posted in the Haste Cap thread with some of my findings after doing Heroic Tsulong for the night, it was an enlightening experience. I'm not sure I'm ready to start Gemming Int, but yes, it does become very valuable with that playstyle, but I still feel as though I want more haste with this setup. I'll probably change my mind once the Invocation change goes live.

    I am DYING to see what our Tier 15 bonuses will be. I'm hoping it will be something that benefits that playstyle.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    Finally someone whose turning into a believer! Soon I will have an ARMY!

    lol, but really, it works great in raid settings too. I posted in the Haste Cap thread with some of my findings after doing Heroic Tsulong for the night, it was an enlightening experience. I'm not sure I'm ready to start Gemming Int, but yes, it does become very valuable with that playstyle, but I still feel as though I want more haste with this setup. I'll probably change my mind once the Invocation change goes live.

    I am DYING to see what our Tier 15 bonuses will be. I'm hoping it will be something that benefits that playstyle.
    im sick of seeing people "uhhh invocation sucks for arcane" even though they never really tried it -_- good to see someone with positive feedback from invocation, heck its not bad its just rop is much much better ATM!!(5.2 will make invocation better with reduced channel)

    i personally havent tried the full haste invocatin so willing to try it after holiday or so

    as for tier bonus..... hopefully its something that will be better than the current t14 stuff cause flast dmage increase to AM and AP is pretty hard to beat :P
    http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=soulstrikes in oceanic now Lol

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  18. #38
    The biggest pet peeve I have about people on these forums is how they preach, and preach about how something won't work, it's not viable, it's not optimal, while having no backup whatsoever. They've never tried it, never simmed it, never did any math on it. I'll be the first to admit that I've done similar in the past. Before I tried it I thought I would be stupid to even think about it, but all the crazy movement for H Tsulong forced me to think outside of the box and it was a great thing.

    Please, if you do try it out, please log or show me some recount logs at least. I really want to see what it's like at higher and lower gear levels, varying levels of haste/mastery etc.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    The biggest pet peeve I have about people on these forums is how they preach, and preach about how something won't work, it's not viable, it's not optimal, while having no backup whatsoever. They've never tried it, never simmed it, never did any math on it. I'll be the first to admit that I've done similar in the past. Before I tried it I thought I would be stupid to even think about it, but all the crazy movement for H Tsulong forced me to think outside of the box and it was a great thing.

    Please, if you do try it out, please log or show me some recount logs at least. I really want to see what it's like at higher and lower gear levels, varying levels of haste/mastery etc.
    wont IW be better for tsulong?? i mean the night phase have damage coming in constantly and during day you need to be foxued on adds and having to cast evocate in between add spawn could hurt your overall burst on adds??
    http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=soulstrikes in oceanic now Lol

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  20. #40
    IW would be okay in the night phase, But I've not had any real practice with using IW effectively on any fights short of Will Heroic, and even then I ended up going back to Rune and doing more DPS. The real problem is that there is no reliable way of proccing IW during the day phase, all the unstable sha damage is random. If you don't proc IW when you pop it, it's going to suck a LOT. Once you get used to the fight, you learn when you can refresh the invocation buff, and it doesn't really affect killing the adds. The more I did the fight the better I got at it, but it's still got a ways to go before I'm comfortable.

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