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  1. #41
    Bloodsail Admiral dannypoos's Avatar
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    I'm A Spriest but im wondering was scorch viable for arcane? because ive allways wonder when I look on my mage

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    The biggest pet peeve I have about people on these forums is how they preach, and preach about how something won't work, it's not viable, it's not optimal, while having no backup whatsoever. They've never tried it, never simmed it, never did any math on it. I'll be the first to admit that I've done similar in the past. Before I tried it I thought I would be stupid to even think about it, but all the crazy movement for H Tsulong forced me to think outside of the box and it was a great thing.

    Please, if you do try it out, please log or show me some recount logs at least. I really want to see what it's like at higher and lower gear levels, varying levels of haste/mastery etc.
    Well ye. But generally speaking I've been 1 of those that dont like invoc with arcane, but thats cause how I play the game. I wanna be the best I can and am in a progress oriented guild, and for those purposes invoc arcane was a lot worse, for my play style at least..

    Now don't get me wrong here, I hate invocation the least from the level 90 talents, cause its free movement and you dont have to get damaged to apply it, but for arcane I dislike it quite a bit atm..

    Another topic totally is that if arcane mages are really "viable for progress raiding" in 5.2 in general.. if so Invocation might very well be the top talent..

  3. #43
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    Please, if you do try it out, please log or show me some recount logs at least. I really want to see what it's like at higher and lower gear levels, varying levels of haste/mastery etc.
    Not sure If we're raiding this week.. or next week.. If I do managed to do some 10mans I'll set up a wol account
    (We got 4-5 ppl who log for our guild when we do 25s.. but half the time they forgot to save them.. and I've only been with them for a little over a month).

    I was playing more with simcraft before I went to bed.. and apparently for my gear (playing with random numbers, slight movement) even crit is a bit better then mastery..

    I'll need to hit up LFR maybe to get my #s. SC keeps telling me to sit @ 70% mana...

    [Initial Burst isn't as big.. maybe i'm just getting unlucky... but the rest of the fight seems to flow.. just need to watch your numbers and line up procs.]
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  4. #44
    I got the same results with crit, valuing it higher than mastery. The burst is different, but can still be as high if not higher depending on your luck with AM. I also don't use AP glyph, I found I would be evocating during the end of it and wasting some of the uptime.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    IW would be okay in the night phase, But I've not had any real practice with using IW effectively on any fights short of Will Heroic, and even then I ended up going back to Rune and doing more DPS. The real problem is that there is no reliable way of proccing IW during the day phase, all the unstable sha damage is random. If you don't proc IW when you pop it, it's going to suck a LOT. Once you get used to the fight, you learn when you can refresh the invocation buff, and it doesn't really affect killing the adds. The more I did the fight the better I got at it, but it's still got a ways to go before I'm comfortable.
    more damage is nice during day phase but you wont need anything more than passive from IW tbh, 6stacks of AC just melts those adds :P. oh and use evoc when low on mana.

    i understand IW can be a bit wonky but give it a go :P

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 09:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dannypoos View Post
    I'm A Spriest but im wondering was scorch viable for arcane? because ive allways wonder when I look on my mage
    i like your avatar XD
    http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=soulstrikes in oceanic now Lol

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  6. #46
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    I'm also against the AP glyph...

    100% duration... meh... get unlucky as fuck and get no AM procs, and you're basically fucked anyways. (I've done a few pulls where I dont get an AM proc until well after all the cd's and jade potion fall off...)



    Since I've always been the fire mage, crit has always been favoured, in any spec.. something about those big numbers.. -nom-
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    I'm also against the AP glyph...

    100% duration... meh... get unlucky as fuck and get no AM procs, and you're basically fucked anyways. (I've done a few pulls where I dont get an AM proc until well after all the cd's and jade potion fall off...)



    Since I've always been the fire mage, crit has always been favoured, in any spec.. something about those big numbers.. -nom-
    isnt that just an rng issue?? i mean you could get no AM proc during unglyphed AP?? :P
    http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=soulstrikes in oceanic now Lol

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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    I got the same results with crit, valuing it higher than mastery. The burst is different, but can still be as high if not higher depending on your luck with AM. I also don't use AP glyph, I found I would be evocating during the end of it and wasting some of the uptime.
    My guild is putting in sub 5% attempts on heroic empress so we will be doing protectors and tsulong heroic soon, and you mentioned invocation as the best talent for tsulong. I was wondering if you could guesstimate % dps loss using invoke versus RoP 6stack camping on a patchwerk fight (I understand how movement affects dps, just a baseline). You make it sound very close, and I'm just curious what the numbers look like. If it is competitive on movement fights, is it just 'spam AB using missiles when u can and barrage at 35% mana and invoke? Is scorch part of it?

    If you would elaborate on this i would be very thankful, as my simcraft skills resemble my surgical neurology skills, nonexistant.

  9. #49
    I haven't had much practice using it aside from tsulong, but it doesn't seem like there was any dps loss, I almost felt like I gained dps, and I was playing poorly that night. The idea is to reforge and gem full haste, and crit before mastery. Your rotation will be basically, keep up NT, AM when it procs, AB as filler. Don't barrage unless it's during AT, and evocate at roughly 30% mana. You're going to get to 6 stacks, and stay there, don't evocate if you would lose stacks, throw in another AB if you have to. Use scorch if you're moving but it's not part of the rotation like it is with RoP.

    I had one bugged attempt on H Tsulong where he didn't enter any phase and didn't do any ability other than nightmares. We stopped dps before he would have died, and reset, but for the 95% of his hp that we did, it was as patchwerk as it got. I got hit by 3 nightmares cause I was tunneling and laughing on mumble, but I sustained 137k for the entire thing. Nobody else in the raid could come close to me, the other mastery stacked RoP mages were way way behind. Even on Empress which is as patchwerk as they come, and with the added damage I do in the add phase I can't come close to 137k with RoP in the same gear.

    Also, if you do get to try this out in any capacity, even if it's on dummies, come back and let us know how you did, how it felt etc. Logs would be amazing as well if you have them.
    Last edited by DreamSpyre; 2012-12-24 at 06:47 AM.

  10. #50
    Interesting, what armor do you use?

  11. #51
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Arcane gets nerfed when it deserves to be nerfed really.... and the nerf or buff is made based on comparison to other classes not just from a perspective where one or two abilities are looking to be overpowered.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Tezra View Post
    Interesting, what armor do you use?
    Frost armor, I could see an argument for molten at certain haste levels, but not there yet with this playstyle.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    I haven't had much practice using it aside from tsulong, but it doesn't seem like there was any dps loss, I almost felt like I gained dps, and I was playing poorly that night. The idea is to reforge and gem full haste, and crit before mastery. Your rotation will be basically, keep up NT, AM when it procs, AB as filler. Don't barrage unless it's during AT, and evocate at roughly 30% mana. You're going to get to 6 stacks, and stay there, don't evocate if you would lose stacks, throw in another AB if you have to. Use scorch if you're moving but it's not part of the rotation like it is with RoP.

    I had one bugged attempt on H Tsulong where he didn't enter any phase and didn't do any ability other than nightmares. We stopped dps before he would have died, and reset, but for the 95% of his hp that we did, it was as patchwerk as it got. I got hit by 3 nightmares cause I was tunneling and laughing on mumble, but I sustained 137k for the entire thing. Nobody else in the raid could come close to me, the other mastery stacked RoP mages were way way behind. Even on Empress which is as patchwerk as they come, and with the added damage I do in the add phase I can't come close to 137k with RoP in the same gear.

    Also, if you do get to try this out in any capacity, even if it's on dummies, come back and let us know how you did, how it felt etc. Logs would be amazing as well if you have them.
    Interesting, I had a quick run on the dummy and surprisingly pulled more dps with Invocation than with ROP. This was with full haste reforge and gem using frost armour. What I need to test though is how it compares over a set block of say 10 minutes in terms of total damage, because I did notice that the channeling of evocation doesn't seem to factor into how recount calculates DPS, so the question will be does the increase in DPS while blasting make up for the lost damage while channeling. It will be interesting to find out because it might mean I can throw ROP out the window on heavy movement fights. Who knows, maybe even patchwork style too!

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kodaz View Post
    Interesting, I had a quick run on the dummy and surprisingly pulled more dps with Invocation than with ROP. This was with full haste reforge and gem using frost armour. What I need to test though is how it compares over a set block of say 10 minutes in terms of total damage, because I did notice that the channeling of evocation doesn't seem to factor into how recount calculates DPS, so the question will be does the increase in DPS while blasting make up for the lost damage while channeling. It will be interesting to find out because it might mean I can throw ROP out the window on heavy movement fights. Who knows, maybe even patchwork style too!
    Would it be possible to get your armory, and maybe some rough numbers you come up with on your dummy tests? I'd really like to get some more data on this. Also, did you attempt to reforge as I mentioned or were you still using the same haste > mastery > crit?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    Would it be possible to get your armory, and maybe some rough numbers you come up with on your dummy tests? I'd really like to get some more data on this. Also, did you attempt to reforge as I mentioned or were you still using the same haste > mastery > crit?
    Sure, I just ran two real time 10 minute patchwork style fights against the boss dummy.

    First was with invocation, casting AB and using procs as they came up then evocating once hitting 35% mana. Tried to keep NT up as much as possible which basically meant casting at 100% mana, then casting again around 55% when due. By the end of the evocate it would be usually be ready to cast again at 100% mana. I did not use arcane power, alter time or time warp for this because I wanted to compare the baseline rotation. I may test burst a bit later on.

    Second test was the usual ROP rotation. I keep NT up the whole time refreshing just as the last tick hits, I also try to stay above 90% mana with respect to scorch weaving.

    Results are:

    1. 10 minutes sustained DPS with invocation:

    Total Dmg = 44,957,145
    Total DPS = 76,291.9 (100%)

    AB: count (204), damage (26,571,076), 59.1%,
    167 hits with Avg dmg of 108,158 (81.9%)
    37 crits with avg dmg of 229,964 (18.1%)
    no misses

    AM: count (329), damage (12,808,650), 28.5%
    178 hits with avg dmg of 33,397 (84.5%)
    51 crits with avg dmg of 69,102 (15.5%)

    NT (Dot): count (620), damage (5,577,419), 12.4%
    529 hits with avg dmg of 7,795 (85.3%)
    91 crits with avg dmg of 15,979 (14.7%)



    2. 10 minutes sustained DPS with Rune of Power:

    Total Dmg: 46,618,385
    Total DPS = 77,189.1 (100%)

    AB: count (167), damage (20,952,396), 44.9%,
    138 hits with Avg dmg of 106,064 (82.6%)
    29 crits with avg dmg of 217,780 (17.4%)
    no misses

    AM: count (429), damage (16,220,034), 34.8%
    366 hits with avg dmg of 32,705 (85.3%)
    63 crits with avg dmg of 67,458 (14.7%)
    no misses

    NT (Dot): count (635), damage (5,556,471), 11.9%
    533 hits with avg dmg of 8,834 (83.9%)
    102 crits with avg dmg of 15,416 (16.1%)
    no misses

    Scorch: count (96), damage (3,889,484), 8.3%
    no misses


    It's interesting, from the results there is about a 3.5% loss to DPS by using invocation instead of ROP. That goes against the preconceived notion that ROP is "far superior" to invocation. In actual encounters I expect this delta to be even smaller because players throw down far more 'wasted' runes than in a straight up dummy test due to boss mechanics and movement. Invocation allows for a more mobile playstyle. I know I have not tested the inclusion of arcane power and this was only self buffed using arcane brilliance with frost armor, but still, I think the difference is going to be so marginal invocation might actually win out in encounters; at least for my gear setup.

    Can't link my armory because MMO won't let me link. Just search for Jlow on frostmourne

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    Would it be possible to get your armory, and maybe some rough numbers you come up with on your dummy tests? I'd really like to get some more data on this. Also, did you attempt to reforge as I mentioned or were you still using the same haste > mastery > crit?
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
    Would it be possible to get your armory, and maybe some rough numbers you come up with on your dummy tests? I'd really like to get some more data on this. Also, did you attempt to reforge as I mentioned or were you still using the same haste > mastery > crit?
    Sure, I just ran two real time 10 minute patchwork style fights against the boss dummy.

    First was with invocation, casting AB and using procs as they came up then evocating once hitting 35% mana. Tried to keep NT up as much as possible which basically meant casting at 100% mana, then casting again around 55% when due. By the end of the evocate it would be usually be ready to cast again at 100% mana. I did not use arcane power, alter time or time warp for this because I wanted to compare the baseline rotation. I may test burst a bit later on.

    Second test was the usual ROP rotation. I keep NT up the whole time refreshing just as the last tick hits, I also try to stay above 90% mana with respect to scorch weaving.

    Results are:

    1. 10 minutes sustained DPS with invocation:

    Total Dmg = 44,957,145
    Total DPS = 76,291.9 (100%)

    AB: count (204), damage (26,571,076), 59.1%,
    167 hits with Avg dmg of 108,158 (81.9%)
    37 crits with avg dmg of 229,964 (18.1%)
    no misses

    AM: count (329), damage (12,808,650), 28.5%
    178 hits with avg dmg of 33,397 (84.5%)
    51 crits with avg dmg of 69,102 (15.5%)

    NT (Dot): count (620), damage (5,577,419), 12.4%
    529 hits with avg dmg of 7,795 (85.3%)
    91 crits with avg dmg of 15,979 (14.7%)



    2. 10 minutes sustained DPS with Rune of Power:

    Total Dmg: 46,618,385
    Total DPS = 77,189.1 (100%)

    AB: count (167), damage (20,952,396), 44.9%,
    138 hits with Avg dmg of 106,064 (82.6%)
    29 crits with avg dmg of 217,780 (17.4%)
    no misses

    AM: count (429), damage (16,220,034), 34.8%
    366 hits with avg dmg of 32,705 (85.3%)
    63 crits with avg dmg of 67,458 (14.7%)
    no misses

    NT (Dot): count (635), damage (5,556,471), 11.9%
    533 hits with avg dmg of 8,834 (83.9%)
    102 crits with avg dmg of 15,416 (16.1%)
    no misses

    Scorch: count (96), damage (3,889,484), 8.3%
    no misses


    It's interesting, from the results there is about a 3.5% loss to DPS by using invocation instead of ROP. That goes against the preconceived notion that ROP is "far superior" to invocation. In actual encounters I expect this delta to be even smaller because players throw down far more 'wasted' runes than in a straight up dummy test due to boss mechanics and movement. Invocation allows for a more mobile playstyle. I know I have not tested the inclusion of arcane power and this was only self buffed using arcane brilliance with frost armor, but still, I think the difference is going to be so marginal invocation might actually win out in encounters; at least for my gear setup.

    Search Jlow on Frostmourne for armory as MMO won't let me link it

  17. #57
    You do forget that there is a raid buff that gives you mastery, so the gap bethween the 2 is wider than on dummies..

  18. #58
    For right now at least, using ap will close the gap in dps between the two. It also seems as though you got about 20ish more AM procs on your RoP test, probably due to scorch weaving but a few more procs on the invocation test and the dps is almost a wash. Did you use haste > mastery > crit reforges on both tests? Swapping the reforges to haste > crit > mastery resulted in about a 2 - 3% dps increase for me, further closing that gap.

  19. #59
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Most patchwerk fights roll around the 5-6 min mark.. 10 min can begin to lead into rng/lazyness, etc..
    It's hard to test fully on dummies because you're missing some essential buffs.. (magic, haste, mastery).
    With free LFR queues(basically.. horray 2h queue last night -.-), it almost seems better to test there, then on dummies.. (and you get SOME mechanics..).


    Going back up.. bad rng is bad rng.

    How do you feel about using up an AM to refresh your stacks? Or just barr it off, and reload (say.. 1st boss HoF hero.. Having a name fart right now)
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  20. #60
    Another thing I find interesting, which I never looked for in my own tests, is that your average damage on the invocation spells, is higher than the average of the rop spells. What I take from that, is that the extra 10% damage from invocation out weighs the lost mastery damage from burning. That also means that mastery isn't devalued as much as I would have expected at all.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 04:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    Most patchwerk fights roll around the 5-6 min mark.. 10 min can begin to lead into rng/lazyness, etc..
    It's hard to test fully on dummies because you're missing some essential buffs.. (magic, haste, mastery).
    With free LFR queues(basically.. horray 2h queue last night -.-), it almost seems better to test there, then on dummies.. (and you get SOME mechanics..).


    Going back up.. bad rng is bad rng.

    How do you feel about using up an AM to refresh your stacks? Or just barr it off, and reload (say.. 1st boss HoF hero.. Having a name fart right now)
    The holidays have kept me busy, I haven't been able to touch an lfr since I tried invocation out. I might have time to play with it tonight if we do an msv clear.

    I wouldn't ever clear stacks unless there's a juicy time to hit a big group of mobs with a barrage. On zorlok I would definitely do my best to keep up stacks, but barrage if it's not possible.

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