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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    I really hate having to do this, but let's deconstruct this really quick.

    1) 30,000 Int wasn't very far from the mark. Fully raid buffed you'd be at 21,879 Int, plus Jade Spirit procs. You also have a 517 weapon. Remember that my given Xuen numbers were for 490 item level, not 502 with a 517 weapon. There's a big difference there.

    2) Garalon is the single most ideal fight in the entire game for Chi Torpedo. Yes, it is very good on fights with huge raid-wide damage constant throughout the fight, bravo. Only 25% overhealing for a blanket AoE heal doesn't happen on most fights. Also, counting overhealing just makes it an awful comparison because Xuen doesn't overheal, it doesn't have to do 5 million raw healing per use, or even 3.7 million because...

    3) Xuen being a cooldown skews it heavily against a 6 minute fight, as the 3rd use simply can't happen until the 6 minute mark. If you extrapolate your Chi Torpedo numbers to assume a constant continuous use to 7 minutes (assuming 3.7 million actual healing per 3 minutes, or 1.23 per minute) then you'd end up with 8.67 million Chi Torpedo healing, whereas Xuen would have only needed to do 2.89 million healing per use, which really isn't a stretch for your spellpower levels.

    To say that Chi Torpedo is "well over what Xuen could ever hope to provide" is simply false, linking an absolute best-case scenario for Chi Torpedo with absolutely no comparison to Xuen and being disingenuous with your numbers (claiming overhealing as part of effective healing that matters). Like I said, in Xuen's ideal situation, it'll beat out Chi Torpedo easily. In Chi Torpedo's ideal situation, it will beat Xuen. You'll have to actually use it once to see what kind of healing it does in your gear, but I wouldn't write Xuen off just because Chi Torpedo is good.
    My xuen would be lucky to hit 2mil, my chi torpedo does more. Further, most of that healing is on ranged with chi torpedo, not melee.
    Testing Xuen on a target dummy gives me 704k damage from lightning, 243k from melee (this was with an int pot on accident, so dont let it taint your perceptions, my average has consistently been 800k-850k~). I'm not spending another 10k for a gem or the 1500 valor on my heroic staff. My spellpower gain from a raid is something like 3-4k, nothing significant enough to tilt it that much. (and a second use has him at 800k damage.) For funsies I threw on my 2H 509 from lei shi (no enchant/gem/upgrades, obv) and it only did 800k. Granted, the 517 has more sp and int so obviously 2h's work better, but the lack of stats makes it worse in my case. Anywho, that averages Xuen to .96 million/use assuming single target, which is most fights. We'll be generous and assume raid buffs boost it by 50% (lol, not happening). So, we'll assume it somehow manages 1.5million/use in my gear. That puts it...at 3mil on Garalon. the amount of healing I get from chi torpedo in 2~ minutes. At less healing than I can get from using all 3 chi torpedo's at the same time (and spread over a longer time interval.) See, chi torpedo can be weaved inbetween instant casts for near-zero interruption on actual healing, making it (essentially) free and added burst healing. Meaning I can get very strong use of it during burst damage that happens on fights.

    Also, your sweeping statements are so incorrect it's laughable. "Garalon is the single most ideal fight in the entire game for Chi Torpedo. Yes, it is very good on fights with huge raid-wide damage constant throughout the fight, bravo." Really? You do realize that Xuen requires people to be taking damage consistently for 45s for it to be worth it as a raid CD? What, you're using it to heal tanks? Healing Sphere will do it better. There's very few fights where Xuen is better than Chi Torpedo, it's raw throughput and the fact that it can be weaved inbetween our instants for increased burst is very, very strong. If you're going to say you want Xuen for spot healing, then maybe you have an argument....but using a CD that has 1/6 uptime for spot healing is very unreliable so...dunno what else to say here, it's not able to fill that role, basically.

    Tsulong is better than garalon, btw. As well, Xuen does overheal, by the way. You haven't been in my raid, so don't attempt to tell me what my raid healing looks like. If you think that my raid goes 45 seconds without being topped a single time or eminence smart healing (which is delayed actually heavily delayed, if you didnt know) healing a target at full health, then you underestimate disc priests. I used to be like you, I thought Xuen was where it's at. But it's really not. Xuen averages 1.2mil for me single target. Chi torpedo averages significantly more than that.

    PS: When I made my Xuen cleave 3 targets it was hitting 2.2mil~. Meaning 2.6~mil healing. Too bad it doesnt do that on most fights huh. Before you make statements about how good something is on raid bosses, you should actually have it hit a single target to test its damage, because theres no way you're averaging 1.6mil single target with Xuen, when I'm stacking int/crit and not even breaking 1mil single target (from multiple uses).

    PSS: Xuen has never cleaved legs for me. He always stands behind the boss, like he does on every other boss, which just happens to be no where near any other legs.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-20 at 01:39 AM ----------

    Taking note of raw throughput is important so you can relate it to other fights in terms of other blanket heals expected overheal (which is normally around 50%). Even in that case chi torpedo beats Xuen.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Heavy raid-wide damage, large clumps of melee, very little potential for overhealing, and nothing to move out of that would require Roll. Are you just going to play dumb in some feigned disbelief or say something meaningful?
    no bro, you said thats the only fight that chi torpedo is beneficial in the entire game. thats why i laughed, chillax with the exaggeration

    please stop stating everything like its a fact you're gonna confuse people

  3. #23
    So, Xuen is bad because you're not using a 2H (40% increase), which I said would make it worse than Chi Torpedo, you'd rather use a healing spell that costs mana to heal tanks, disregard everything I said to harp on cleaving (which I never even mentioned), and saying that I am making assumptions about your raid healing. Oh, you also think that a fight in which there is no mass raid damage for half of the fight is ideal for Chi Torpedo. What a joke.

    I've always been sketchy about half of the rants you made before, but this level of blatantly ignoring points puts you squarely on the list of people to never bother discussing things seriously with.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-19 at 07:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bigfootbigd View Post
    no bro, you said thats the only fight that chi torpedo is beneficial in the entire game. thats why i laughed, chillax with the exaggeration

    please stop stating everything like its a fact you're gonna confuse people
    This just in: "most ideal fight" now means "only useful fight ever" in bigfootbigd's world. Reading comprehension is a useful skill in a text-based communication medium, I suggest you go get some.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    This just in: "most ideal fight" now means "only useful fight ever" in bigfootbigd's world. Reading comprehension is a useful skill in a text-based communication medium, I suggest you go get some.
    "the most single ideal fight in the entire game" is much more different than "most ideal fight", the laughing matter being chi torpedo is helpful in MANY fights. derp.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    So, Xuen is bad because you're not using a 2H (40% increase), which I said would make it worse than Chi Torpedo, you'd rather use a healing spell that costs mana to heal tanks, disregard everything I said to harp on cleaving (which I never even mentioned), and saying that I am making assumptions about your raid healing. Oh, you also think that a fight in which there is no mass raid damage for half of the fight is ideal for Chi Torpedo. What a joke.

    I've always been sketchy about half of the rants you made before, but this level of blatantly ignoring points puts you squarely on the list of people to never bother discussing things seriously with.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-19 at 07:47 PM ----------



    This just in: "most ideal fight" now means "only useful fight ever" in bigfootbigd's world. Reading comprehension is a useful skill in a text-based communication medium, I suggest you go get some.
    I put on a 2H and it did less than my 1h/OH. 600 sp/500int/a few secondary stats is not 40% damage increase. The majority of Xuen's damage comes from his lightning, not his melee. His melee is the only part that gets increased by the haste. But please, keep ignoring me and quoting blatantly false information.

    I'd rather not use a 3min CD to heal tanks when I have one of the most efficient and highest HPS single target heals in the game, correct.

    The cleave was to other people, but there is no way you're seeing 2 mil+ per use w/o cleaving so dunno what to tell you unless you're magically more skilled and your Xuen hits 2x as hard.

    What fight is there no mass raid damage? If there is burst raid damage of any kind, chi torpedo is god like, hands down.

    Times Xuen wins? Wind lord, debate-able for elegon, debate-able on ambershaper (should win if given proper usage and if theres raid damage during those times, which spirit shell means not always), not sure if stone guards dmg bonus benefits xuen but its a joke of a fight, lei shi (though I prefer CT for get away/top offs), and Gara'jal. That's about it. Every other fight has raid damage of a nature which greatly benefits chi torpedo. On the other hand, most of those fights also contain gimmicks which boost damage taken by the boss.

    So yeah, I stand by my statements. But please, go on and tell me how your Xuen is doing 2mil damage per use in worse gear, please go on.

    Edit: You point at me for ignoring points...when I explicitly quoted numbers with a 2H and a 1H, of 8ilvl difference, and the 1H was better. 8ilvls is not a 40% difference. 2H does not make that large of a difference with Xuen.
    Honestly, you're a joke. If you're going to be a hypocrite and provide false information supporting your own argument, then yeah I'm going to be less than sincere, especially when you tell me I'm wrong when I'm providing logs and evidence, and all you're spouting is this incorrect assumption which doesn't translate to raids.
    Last edited by Astraios; 2012-12-20 at 03:02 AM.

  6. #26
    What point are you trying to get to? Which talent is better in general or which fight which talent is better for what reason? Right now I'm only very confused.

    I myself have never used Xuen since I hate pets (guardians, bloodworms etc.). Also, it's 3 min cd duration makes it very unappealing to me. I prefer the mobility and choices I get with Chi Torpedo since I can use it when I feel it's needed.

    Although, having Xuen would be sweet in times of 45 sec of heavy raid damage since I could just pop it for a stream of passive raidhealing and damage boost. A glyph for a shorter cd/duration would make it somewhat more available and thus appealing, but I would probably not use it anyway. I HATE pets.

    PS! When I can't roll, I WASD. Best talents ever. Few players got it, it seems.

  7. #27
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    So, not only are we off-topic, it seems that people have gotten a little heated. Let's get back on track and try to keep cool, okay?

  8. #28
    I sometimes have issues with ReM not spreading, H windlord was a perfect example, because nobody took damage nobody was getting my HoT, and becuase of it it was very difficult to heal through rain of blades.
    The only way you'll be able to blanket an entire raid with your hots is with TFT, and it'll only be a 10 man as well.
    Grid tracks ReM very well actually, idk what raid frames you use but I would definitely recommend grid.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    If your statue is up, yes, Xuen will heal via eminence.
    Even if your statue isn't up, xuen will still do 50% of his dmg *1.20 (stance coefficient) as eminence from the monk itself. You just gain an additionnal 50%*1.2 value from the statue. On 3 targets his hps alone is awesome (like grand empress during adds phase assuming your statue is near melee grp and so are you).

    in ilvl 480-490, you are talking about roughly 25k hps per target in a fully intelligent shape (6250 ticks twice every .5 seconds one within 20yd of the monk, one within 20yd of the statue).

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 10:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    My xuen would be lucky to hit 2mil, my chi torpedo does more. Further, most of that healing is on ranged with chi torpedo, not melee.
    Testing Xuen on a target dummy gives me 704k damage from lightning, 243k from melee (this was with an int pot on accident, so dont let it taint your perceptions, my average has consistently been 800k-850k~). I'm not spending another 10k for a gem or the 1500 valor on my heroic staff. My spellpower gain from a raid is something like 3-4k, nothing significant enough to tilt it that much. (and a second use has him at 800k damage.) For funsies I threw on my 2H 509 from lei shi (no enchant/gem/upgrades, obv) and it only did 800k. Granted, the 517 has more sp and int so obviously 2h's work better, but the lack of stats makes it worse in my case. Anywho, that averages Xuen to .96 million/use assuming single target, which is most fights. We'll be generous and assume raid buffs boost it by 50% (lol, not happening). So, we'll assume it somehow manages 1.5million/use in my gear. That puts it...at 3mil on Garalon. the amount of healing I get from chi torpedo in 2~ minutes. At less healing than I can get from using all 3 chi torpedo's at the same time (and spread over a longer time interval.) See, chi torpedo can be weaved inbetween instant casts for near-zero interruption on actual healing, making it (essentially) free and added burst healing. Meaning I can get very strong use of it during burst damage that happens on fights.
    Trying to refrain from linking everything

    Xuen costs you a single GCD per 3 mins, Chi Torpedo costs you one per 15 seconds in ideal scenario. OFC chi torpedo will do more total healing but it's at a major cost of losing a lot of healing via other means. If you are super mana starved when using Xuen, then yes, you will get more bang for your buck out of it but the way you do the comparison is plain bad.

    On top of that, the garalon comparison is broken because Xuen flies to a corner and does 0 damage on garalon anyway.

    Totaltotemic pointed out a cpl things about Xuen. The big big thing is chi torpedo scales significantly better in 25m than in 10m. Sure it's healing is capped at 6 targets but the mastery orbs procs from it isn't yet it's multiplicative factor is based for 6 making it super scale just like chi burst and SCK.

    In 10m, there are honestly very few encounters where chi torpedo is the better choice. Hell personnally I've been using it as a mean to help burst cleave dps more than for it's healing component. Shield phase in Hfeng is a good example. At the same time, Xuen does the reverse on single target bosses with tight enrage timer for progression. The one thing though is that whilst CT healing is competitive with uplift/CB for the GCD spent and nets out no real mana cost, it has the disadvantage of being unstackable with the normal rotation. Xuen on the other hand can and while it would be greater if it had shorter duration and shorter cd to line up better with certain boss mechanics but it's definitely a strong tool for any "enrage" periods or sustained burst/execute phases.
    Last edited by Deau; 2012-12-21 at 10:16 AM.

  10. #30
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyriaa View Post
    Grid tracks ReM very well actually, idk what raid frames you use but I would definitely recommend grid.
    Vuhdo has the same functionality built it into it as well.

    Windlord is a joke.

  11. #31
    i know that u should have ur RM 7ish (25 mand raiding ) . but when is the best time to use TFT ? giving the situation ofc

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubbys View Post
    i know that u should have ur RM 7ish (25 mand raiding ) . but when is the best time to use TFT ? giving the situation ofc
    5+ targets and 1 second left on the person with the shortest duration left. Sounds like a good opportunity.

  13. #33
    RM RM RM RM RM RM RM RM RM ......boss pulled. BoK BoK RM, Jab uplfit, Jab RM Uplift (WA says 8 people at .05 seconds left) TBT Uplift oh look, now I got 8 people with full uplift..... Jab RM Uplift (9,10,11) yatta yatta yatta.... I've just learned to watch for when TBT is available and seeing that 8 people @0.05 seconds hitting it with uplift.

    *Side Note: Don't keep uplifting yourself or a tank during massive AOE fights. ALWAYS LOOK FOR SOMEONE THAT DOESN'T HAVE IT.

  14. #34
    The only place where i was content with our current RnM/Uplift situation was Gara'jal because of the small number of people receiving huge damage, apart from that fight i heavily dislike the massively reduced spread since 5.1. With nerfing CB they take away our other means of aoe healing which already had a positional requirement. So for raid damage we now have a 30s "cd" with CB and a 45s cd with tft plus 3m revival (considering you took Chi Torpedo).

    This makes it look like they really want us spending our chi on Enveloping Mists which i deem problematic in high raid damage situations.
    Our high mastery numbers on fights which require the entire raid to be stacked was the result of sck proccing insane amounts of spheres, i don't really see how they want to offset our reduced aoe healing with the spheres exploding after 30s for 50% of the normal value, at least not in a 6m radius.

    I don't think these changes will be final without some sort of buff to RnM spread and a nerf to uplift which many people already called for.

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