1. #1
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Protection warrior DPS.

    They say a picture paints a thousand words.



    Yet 5.3 rolls along and the only retuning that goes on is a Shield Slam nerf below level 85.

    Anyone fancy trying to explain why it's okay that warrior DPS should be so dramatically worse than the other tanks in 10-man (also averages worst in 25-man, but middle of the road in 25-man heroic)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Placebo's Avatar
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    Skull banner + Sunders + Cry is a decent trade off for the lack of damage. Spend more time /sitting if you're after more DPS!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Placebo View Post
    Skull banner + Sunders + Cry is a decent trade off for the lack of damage. Spend more time /sitting if you're after more DPS!
    Isn't it enough we have to go out of our way to take more damage to be on par with the other tanks ?
    We're the only tank that get crippled mitigation wise in execute phase ?
    I wouldn't mind if they gave protection a cd on (buffed)execute and removed the rage cost.

    @Zellviren, i have no good reason why, guess it goes with playing a warrior, even if we do get buffed, warriors aint allowed nice things and we'll be nerfed worse than before, sad but true lol
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-05-22 at 09:01 AM.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Placebo View Post
    Skull banner + Sunders + Cry is a decent trade off for the lack of damage. Spend more time /sitting if you're after more DPS!
    Said utility is brought by any warrior, so can't be called a "trade off" under any circumstances.

    Also, I'm not going to stress my healers just because Blizzard don't want to make warriors competitive on DPS. I know you're only suggesting it as a workaround, so please don't think I'm getting at you with this comment, but it's not really the point and the very suggestion that I should have to be a worse tank to catch up is, in my mind, absolutely perverse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Said utility is brought by any warrior, so can't be called a "trade off" under any circumstances.

    Also, I'm not going to stress my healers just because Blizzard don't want to make warriors competitive on DPS. I know you're only suggesting it as a workaround, so please don't think I'm getting at you with this comment, but it's not really the point and the very suggestion that I should have to be a worse tank to catch up is, in my mind, absolutely perverse.
    Not to mention that prot warriors aren't the only tanks, nor are warriors the only class capable of applying sunders, in fact other classes even have superior ways to apply sunder armour.

  6. #6
    Sadly you already linked the top 100 parses comparison and not the overall charts, i would have an explanation for that disparity. Skull Banner is a fancy little cooldown adding what 0,something raiddps for your whole raid over a eight minutes fight?

    Top paladin aim for haste and neglect mastery, top monks aim for crit/haste and neglect mastery, top druids aim for crit and neglect mastery. I guess you get the picture of what's wrong. Right now only for the paladin out of those three mastery would be on par for survivability but why give up a damage/control build for that?

    Actually i don't see why good Blood DK can keep up with that, most of them still stack mastery (just as we do?) - looks like their abilities scale better with attackpower or something like that.

  7. #7
    Field Marshal Placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adudu View Post
    Not to mention that prot warriors aren't the only tanks, nor are warriors the only class capable of applying sunders, in fact other classes even have superior ways to apply sunder armour.
    I wouldn't underestimate the value of these things in a 10 man environment.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Placebo View Post
    I wouldn't underestimate the value of these things in a 10 man environment.
    He's not, he's just saying taht they don't excuse warrior DPS being so comparatively horrible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  9. #9
    How will the 70% nerf to vengeance affect prot warrior dps? Considering 100k dps at a given fight, will it fall down to 30k? This would make certain fights unkillable >.<

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Morghie View Post
    How will the 70% nerf to vengeance affect prot warrior dps? Considering 100k dps at a given fight, will it fall down to 30k? This would make certain fights unkillable >.<
    No, it would not... It would really mostly effect fights you one tank or where you take more damage on purpose to have alot of vengeance... Most fights I expect my DPS to take a small hit if any, some one tank fights it would be more drastic but that's just a matter of blizzard designing fights to be two tanked better so you can cheeze it with HoP and Bubbles and what not.

    I don't like the fact they're touching it but they'll effect other classes more, like my prot paladin buddy who goes for three Adds on heroic Animus (i don't fucking even wanna try that little trick). That said, they should revert the Shield Barier changes back if they do this, since they nerfed that due to insane scaling when going above 400K vengeance and what not.

    Also it's not a 70% nerf, it's a nerf of 70% on the CAP. Which is not something I generally sit at in 10 man...
    Last edited by Odeanathus; 2013-05-23 at 09:59 AM.
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  11. #11
    I'm really worried about Shield Barrier scaling as a result of the vengeance nerf (I know this has little to do with the damage). As a very undergeared Prot Warrior, the insane vengeance I get at times is the only thing keeping me alive because I can Shield Barrier those huge hits that would otherwise practically one-shot me.

    I really REALLY dislike having an active mitigation that is affected by vengeance. Barrier should scale with our HP or Mastery or something.

  12. #12
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    You really Shouldn't worry about the vengeance changes
    I am running with around 1million HP raid buffed, I can safely say that I have NEVER gone up to 500k vengeance in ToT Heroic... even when scumbagging
    The highest I think I have gone was to around 450k and that was when 3 bouncing bolts adds spawned in the last phase of lei-shen...

    This change won't affect you for the most part

    You would need 600k or less in 25 man to ever really notice this change when on a single target boss, and that is still in the fairly extreme case of Durumu at which you are looking at around 250k vengenace

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddytheone View Post
    You really Shouldn't worry about the vengeance changes
    I am running with around 1million HP raid buffed, I can safely say that I have NEVER gone up to 500k vengeance in ToT Heroic... even when scumbagging
    Eddy knows my views on scumbagging but, essentially, this is correct. The design intention is purely to put a stop to some of the ridiculous numbers that are skewing enrage timers; traditionally, guilds would shed a healer if they needed more DPS.

    In Throne of Thunder, some are shedding tanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Placebo View Post
    Sunders
    what ?
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Actually i don't see why good Blood DK can keep up with that, most of them still stack mastery (just as we do?) - looks like their abilities scale better with attackpower or something like that.
    As far as I know they have decent weapon dps scaling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morghie View Post
    How will the 70% nerf to vengeance affect prot warrior dps? Considering 100k dps at a given fight, will it fall down to 30k? This would make certain fights unkillable >.<
    I doubt they will make the change before 5.4 so nothing will happen.

  15. #15
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morghie View Post
    How will the 70% nerf to vengeance affect prot warrior dps? Considering 100k dps at a given fight, will it fall down to 30k? This would make certain fights unkillable >.<
    I have hit the vengeance cap ONCE and that was by pulling the entire Qon room with myself and 5 healers only a few DPS during an AFK break letting the bleed stack up.... if you think this is a 70% nerf to vengeance then I think you have read it incorrectly:P

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Morghie View Post
    How will the 70% nerf to vengeance affect prot warrior dps? Considering 100k dps at a given fight, will it fall down to 30k? This would make certain fights unkillable >.<
    What are you talking about? Even on the hardest hitting bosses like heroic Durumu or Primordius you won't have to worry to much. Yes, you'll run around with slightly less attackpower on those special fights (or Horridon during the last phase) but that's about it. On most fights i hover somewhere around 75-150k and even with way less gear that shouldn't be an issue.

    What might concerns me: what happens to older, scary fights like Empress heroic or Meljarak? I used to get vengeance cap there rather easily. And on Empress that's with two tanks, not one (for obvious reasons). Shall we bring three tanks if we ever want to go back there or is the ilvl increase of our and our healers gear enough to make up for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    As far as I know they have decent weapon dps scaling.
    That's a really good point, i run around with a 541 weapon since week 2 of this tier and all i get from it is slightly stronger devastate, melee swings and an occassional heroic strike every now and then. That's barely 1/3 of my whole damage contribution that scales with weapon damage

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    That's a really good point, i run around with a 541 weapon since week 2 of this tier and all i get from it is slightly stronger devastate, melee swings and an occassional heroic strike every now and then. That's barely 1/3 of my whole damage contribution that scales with weapon damage
    Assuming you're not scumbagging and there aren't a pile of adds to buff Deep Wounds, Shield Slam will account for over 30% of your DPS on average; it also hits over twice as hard as anything else and a "good" performance will require far higher than average Sword and Board procs. In comparison, Revenge, Devastate and (particularly) Heroic Strike are pathetic. This is where we simply suffer from bad design, as there's nothing we can do to make these attacks any better. Warrior DPS is entirely dependent on Shield Slam while our sole DPS proc, Ultimatum, is as good as useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  18. #18
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Ok, well I did reach 500k vs Ra-Den, but thats it :P

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