He's having a discussion...

[D3athsting]

...on why rogues are so low pop
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...90965782405121

Looks like he's been high for 8 months and didn't notice billions of threads of concerns complaints about rogue across all boards since beta release...

Make sure discussion remains civil, please. -Mugajak

[Speaknoevil]

Because only certain kinds of people want to play rogues?

[Incineration]

Because the class as a whole is uninteresting, uninspiring, and dull; and apart from results, doesn't net the player any satisfaction?

[D3athsting]

Because the class as a whole is uninteresting, uninspiring, and dull; and apart from results, don't net the player any satisfaction?

100% this, u totally got the point

[Ethes]

@SamSykesSwears One theory is rogues are only attractive when they are great at ganking, which isn't fun for anyone else. Just a theory.

I think this theory has quite a lot of truth to it tbh!

[D3athsting]

I think this theory has quite a lot of truth to it tbh!

Why doesn't he ask himself if it's good design for a class to be only fun for ganking and boring to death for everything else?

[slime]

Because they've bastardized all the rogue abilities and handed them out to every other class. The rogue brings nothing (like a group buff) to the raid that another class can't bring. And, their only real job... dps... and they are not even best at that. It's alright though guys...... GHOSTCRAWLER IS ON THE CASE NOW!

[Carp The Fish]

Because when someone asks "Do I want to roll a rogue", 9 times out of 10 I will tell them no for the exact reasons Incineration mentioned, and then go on (this patch cycle, specifically) to say how I'm having way more fun and/or pulling better numbers on a warlock or warrior than I am on my rogue.

EDIT: Swiftblade's Cunning, +spell damage, Expose Armor, and the best cleave mechanic in the game.
Only problem with those 4 is that that's all 1 spec.

[D3athsting]

This class need a complete and total revamp that we will hardly see to happen mid expansion, oh and i don't trust Gc anymore...I stopped playing my rogue in cata after getting oranges, i had much more fun doing RF or guild runs with my warlock mage and hunter alts, period.

[Cookie]

...on why rogues are so low pop
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...90965782405121

Looks like he's been high for 8 months and didn't notice billions of threads of concerns complaints about rogue across all boards since beta release...

Looks like you can't read, let me quote the last part of his statement "(even when they were great at PvP). ". You're welcome.

I personally think that they main reasons for rogues low pop would be that they simply perform one role which doesn't change much regardless of spec in pve (while e.g. paladins may attract people wanting to dps, heal and/or tank) and that some things that used to be unique for and attract many players to rogues (e.g. stealth, 1 sec gcd, heavy cc, great 1v1) have been shared to many other classes.

[Incineration]

This class need a complete and total revamp that we will hardly see to happen mid expansion, oh and i don't trust Gc anymore...I stopped playing my rogue in cata after getting oranges, i had much more fun doing RF or guild runs with my warlock mage and hunter alts, period.

It really doesn't need a complete overhaul. The specs could need some slight redesigning a bit a la what Warlocks had this expansion, but a complete overhaul isn't necessary. Here, I'll list exactly what the specs need in order for the class to become immensely more varied and enjoyable:

- Make Slice and Dice a Combat only buff (This is the single most important change that has to be made!)
- Introduce more abilities or simply make the already existing ones unique; I do not want to see Eviscerate being used in more than one spec and I sure as hell do not want to see Rupture in all 3 specs.
- Fix our talents; not going to list the issues, we all know them in and out by now
- Make Tricks of the Trade a raid-wide damage reduction buff

And that's it. That's all we really need.
- Less passive damage
- More interesting rotations
- Better customization of talents
- Raid utility

Enjoy.

[Stir]

You know; to be honest, the Rogue's main problem is its core design. Combo points. They're an incredibly clunky mechanic. Poison stacks are RNG (unlike the Druid's bleeds), so they aren't that interesting either...
One way to fix it is to do away with combo points on targets, and instead transfer them fully to the rogue.
Stacking up counters on your target, and allowing that to make your special attacks, is simply clunky. Hate to say it, but the Windwalker Monk is everything the combat rogue should be. With the monk class available, the only real reason to play a rogue is stealth. Which is something cats can also do.

[gamingmuscle]

It really doesn't need a complete overhaul. The specs could need some slight redesigning a bit a la what Warlocks had this expansion, but a complete overhaul isn't necessary. Here, I'll list exactly what the specs need in order for the class to become immensely more varied and enjoyable:

- Make Slice and Dice a Combat only buff (This is the single most important change that has to be made!)
- Introduce more abilities or simply make the already existing ones unique; I do not want to see Eviscerate being used in more than one spec and I sure as hell do not want to see Rupture in all 3 specs.
- Fix our talents; not going to list the issues, we all know them in and out by now
- Make Tricks of the Trade a raid-wide damage reduction buff

And that's it. That's all we really need.
- Less passive damage
- More interesting rotations
- Better customization of talents
- Raid utility

Enjoy.

That sounds like a complete overhaul....lol.

[Soullord]

comparing just Fun mistweaver monks which use "similar" mechanics feel a lot more fun rogue feels like it's always waiting to be able to press a button for minimal gain.

[Incineration]

That sounds like a complete overhaul....lol.

What I understand by "a complete overhaul" is a renewing of a resource system, reworking rotations entirely, reworking mechanics entirely, etc... Not simply adding/removing some abilities and effects.

[eijin]

It really doesn't need a complete overhaul. The specs could need some slight redesigning a bit a la what Warlocks had this expansion, but a complete overhaul isn't necessary. Here, I'll list exactly what the specs need in order for the class to become immensely more varied and enjoyable:

- Make Slice and Dice a Combat only buff (This is the single most important change that has to be made!)
- Introduce more abilities or simply make the already existing ones unique; I do not want to see Eviscerate being used in more than one spec and I sure as hell do not want to see Rupture in all 3 specs.
- Fix our talents; not going to list the issues, we all know them in and out by now
- Make Tricks of the Trade a raid-wide damage reduction buff

And that's it. That's all we really need.
- Less passive damage
- More interesting rotations
- Better customization of talents
- Raid utility

Enjoy.

sadly, the majority of that (as it is a few pretty big changes) would take an expansion, not a patch. I was hoping for something like this with MoPs launch, sadly all they did was made the class -less- interesting (combat feels more like mut than it did, sub was totally nerfed in its complexity/interesting-ness)

[Paulosio]

Always found my rogue incredibly boring to play in a PVE environment. Only really tried combat during Wotlk and Cata but i've heard Assasination was just as dull to play.

[D3athsting]

Always found my rogue incredibly boring to play in a PVE environment. Only really tried combat during Wotlk and Cata but i've heard Assasination was just as dull to play.

Sub is a bit more fun to play but very little rewarding in terms of damage: more effort for less gain

[Squirl]

I enjoy Assassination. It could be faster paced, but I detest GCD-locked classes. Adding in some sort of Overkill mechanic again would be nice; maybe attach it to Vendetta.

I really don't think rogues need a complete overhaul. We just need some sprucing up and damage source retuning.

What I would like to see:

• More damage from active sources; less passive damage (especially Combat and Subt)
• Speed up Assassination a little bit
• Improved mobility (baseline Shadow Step!)
• Better PvP defensive and control capabilities

[eijin]

I enjoyed combat back in ICC, i dont honestly know what could have changed since then. Honestly it was duller back then, i guess its mostly the fact that most other classes feel like they have changed/evolved while im still doin the exact same stuff i did 3 years ago. Sub was much more fun back then as well :-/.

I dont really find sub fun to play anymore, its moreso annoying for me, expecially knowing mutilate could do more DPS with less positional requirements/build up. as far as mut being dull, you press buttons less often than you do as combat, but each invidual decision matters less. as combat you may get 1 CP, may get 2, but you know you will have to RS in x amount of seconds, and iwll have to SnD in x amount of seconds. as mutilate you have similar with rupture, but your CP gain is a lot more dynamic, as well as dispatch procs you have to pay attention to. Sometimes you have a ton of CP sometimes you have a shortage, so you have to use them optimally to avoid capping on either CP or energy. i'd consider it to actually have a lot more thought required than combat does. that being said.. it still isnt much, and if you make the wrong decision you really dont lose much DPS :-/

in general, i feel the diffrence between a rogue played perfectly and a rogue played "good" (not perfect or even great, just good) isnt much. I'd like to see more complexity (however, not clunkiness) added to the class in order to let me feel that im actually "playing" my class, not just facerolling, and that i am actually rewarded for this. Tanks mostly went to active mitigation achieveing exactly this result, however we got simpler :-/.

fully on topic: rogue have -always- been a lower played class. They have only been largely played in pvp, however they are always weaker in early teirs of pvp, on top of getting mostly nerfs on the pvp side (new talents give our well known cooldowns to every spec, however overall because you can only choose 2, all but combat actually -lost- total CDs). In pve we saw a spike in DS due to the legendary.