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  1. #1

    Need assistance with our Mistweaver Monk

    Hello - As the title says, I'm looking for assistance with our Mistweaver Monk.

    Not that it matters but our guild was just recently created mostly by RL friends. Due to this, I plan to take the advice provided and sit down in person with our Monk to work things out. We're currently 4/6 normal MV and have just recently started working on HoF - We're nothing special, just playing and enjoying current content together.

    We're running into an issue in HoF where most of our people are dying due to either the Force and Verve damage or the Sonic Rings - more importantly though, people are dying to FaV, seemingly, when it's our Monks turn to use damage reduction cooldowns (we'll fix the sonic rings issue eventually). We basically lack the DPS to beat the enrage timer after a couple of people have died which also makes it that much harder to kill MC targets in a reasonable amount of time. We started looking at the logs and have noticed that our Monk appears to be holding back or just using the wrong abilities at the wrong time, maybe. This is where I need your help since the only Monk we (our guild) knows is the one that apparently is running into some sort of an issue. We would honestly be very happy if we could get his avg HPS to the 30's or even 40's - I'm not sure if that is too much to expect however I've heard that Mistweaver Monks are quite the healer.

    I (now) know he is missing an enchant on his gloves, I will take care of that tonight. In the first three logs below, he dies before the end of the run however it's not too early to still see what he is or is not doing. On the Feng run, the Paladin was approximately 10+ item levels lower than the Monk and was most likely running without any enchants.

    This is our Monk - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ikang/advanced

    Wipe (1) on Zor'lok - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/4mfiz...?s=6699&e=7306

    Wipe (2) on Zor'lok - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/4mfiz...?s=8208&e=8813

    Wipe (3) on Zor'lok - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/4mfiz...?s=9101&e=9650

    Clean Feng run for comparison - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/y73dj...?s=5062&e=5457

    Thank you very much for both your time and assistance.
    Last edited by dinobatbird; 2012-12-18 at 06:12 PM.

  2. #2
    First of all, mistweavers are in pretty bad condition after the nerfs. Not enough to justify this guy's play but enough to say that our cooldown won't carry you through a force and verve like any other's will. You have a disc priest which will hurt his healing as well, but he's healing very inefficiently.

    He uses surging mist too much, bad renewing mist uptime and barely any uplifts.

  3. #3
    Oh wow....where to even begin. I won't even look at or discuss his cooldown usage because just looking at his healing breakdown its clear he hasn't read a single guide on monk healing. First, his renewing mist usage is abysmal. From the one log I looked at he didn't use uplift but twice. This is bad.....very very bad. How on. earth you guys have even killed any bosses with him healing is mindblowing.

    His top healing spell is surging mist. The guy is ooming himself a quarter of the way through a fight doing this. The best thing you can do OP is when you meet with him to go to his computer and open any mistweaver guides you can find and make him read them. He needs to completely forget anything he thinks he knows about mistweavers and start from the very basics.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 11:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    First of all, mistweavers are in pretty bad condition after the nerfs.
    This is a stretch. They aren't way OP and can't face roll with infinite mana anymore, but to say they are in a pretty bad condition is wrong. They are middle of the pack currently and actually take a bit of skill to play them now.

  4. #4
    We're middle of the pack on the healing meters, factor in the mitigative cooldowns other classes have, the lack of control we have over our own healing and the fact our ground targeted gimmick heal is better than our fast expensive and we're pretty terrible right now. This isn't the thread for this though.

  5. #5
    These guys are right, he's being very, very bad about renewing mist and Uplift usage. First, here's a log of our most recent Zor'lok kill (from my healing so you can compare): http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9m...?s=1509&e=1868

    He needs to keep renewing mist on cooldown, and always put the initial cast on someone who's injured, since it's harder to control the jumps afterward. For FaV, make sure the monk has used Thunder Focus Tea after keeping Renewing Mist on cooldown. If he does use TFT, about 10 seconds before FaV happens, he should be able to cover the entire raid with Renewing. This way, if he has full Chi, he can Uplift spam. Also something to note for that, put him in the bubble under the boss, he can spinning crane kick and hit the next closest bubble if he positions himself right.

    Since he isn't talented for him, Casting Xuen during FaV platform does 2 things, helps with his Eminence healing (healing through his attacks), and he does some decent damage, so it pushes the phase. Your monk it talented currently for Rushing Jade Wind, which is not a good talent for that fight.

    If DPS is an issue, maybe your monk should try fistweaving just to help move things along. Now, I know it sounds crazy since monk DPS isn't all that great, but it's a twofold thing: For one, of course is the DPS, and Xuen DOES get any buffs applied, so if say, the warrior drops skull banner, which buffs the monk, Xuen will get it. This will increase the eminence healing of both the monk and Xuen. Also, have him keep the Tiger Power buff up (the one from using Tiger Palm, 30% armor ignore), it'll help, although very slightly. The second reason was touched on in the first: eminence healing. While eminence healing isn't as "powerful" as your monk casting a bunch of nuke Surging Mist (which is BAD for the mana pool), it is a slow, constant AoE heal that goes on throughout the fight. Crit helps too, if a melee swing or a Jab gets a crit, the eminence heal crits as well.

    Lastly, I would get your DPS to take a look at our logs as well. Your hunter and warlocks might be able to benefit from comparing spell usage. 50k DPS as top dps for your group is just...well, lets just say that's the number nobody should be under after being even in full LFR gear and nothing more (if you are serious about clearing the content and improving your group's performance). It's a matter of spell usage, rotation, and timing certain things well, so some of your guys might need to read a few guides and compare some logs.

  6. #6
    This guy needs to use some common sense or look at a guide. Eminence with no statue? Rushing Jade Wind but used SCK only once? Surging Mist (a button that should almost never be pressed) as the highest heal? He literally has no clue what he's doing.

  7. #7
    I accidentally deleted my previous post. Thank you all for the responses.

    It is definitely worse than what I was imagining. I guess it's back to the basics then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jekerdud View Post
    These guys are right, he's being very, very bad about renewing mist and Uplift usage. First, here's a log of our most recent Zor'lok kill (from my healing so you can compare): http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9m...?s=1509&e=1868

    He needs to keep renewing mist on cooldown, and always put the initial cast on someone who's injured, since it's harder to control the jumps afterward. For FaV, make sure the monk has used Thunder Focus Tea after keeping Renewing Mist on cooldown. If he does use TFT, about 10 seconds before FaV happens, he should be able to cover the entire raid with Renewing. This way, if he has full Chi, he can Uplift spam. Also something to note for that, put him in the bubble under the boss, he can spinning crane kick and hit the next closest bubble if he positions himself right.

    Since he isn't talented for him, Casting Xuen during FaV platform does 2 things, helps with his Eminence healing (healing through his attacks), and he does some decent damage, so it pushes the phase. Your monk it talented currently for Rushing Jade Wind, which is not a good talent for that fight.

    If DPS is an issue, maybe your monk should try fistweaving just to help move things along. Now, I know it sounds crazy since monk DPS isn't all that great, but it's a twofold thing: For one, of course is the DPS, and Xuen DOES get any buffs applied, so if say, the warrior drops skull banner, which buffs the monk, Xuen will get it. This will increase the eminence healing of both the monk and Xuen. Also, have him keep the Tiger Power buff up (the one from using Tiger Palm, 30% armor ignore), it'll help, although very slightly. The second reason was touched on in the first: eminence healing. While eminence healing isn't as "powerful" as your monk casting a bunch of nuke Surging Mist (which is BAD for the mana pool), it is a slow, constant AoE heal that goes on throughout the fight. Crit helps too, if a melee swing or a Jab gets a crit, the eminence heal crits as well.

    Lastly, I would get your DPS to take a look at our logs as well. Your hunter and warlocks might be able to benefit from comparing spell usage. 50k DPS as top dps for your group is just...well, lets just say that's the number nobody should be under after being even in full LFR gear and nothing more (if you are serious about clearing the content and improving your group's performance). It's a matter of spell usage, rotation, and timing certain things well, so some of your guys might need to read a few guides and compare some logs.
    Thank you for the information. Looks like I will be reading the Monk guides as well; you mentioned quite a few things that I was unaware of and I probably should be before I start relaying information to our Monk. It honestly sounds like the Monk is the most complicated healer to operate properly, although I'm sure it's second nature with time.
    Last edited by dinobatbird; 2012-12-18 at 05:55 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinobatbird View Post
    It honestly sounds like the Monk is the most complicated healer to operate properly, although I'm sure it's second nature with time.
    Not really. Weak auras when Expel Harm and ReM is off of CD, have another weak auras when you have two stacks of mana tea and your HP is < 90% and when it's off CD, then a simple display showing him how much Chi he has so he can either uplift or Chi Burst (if you are all stacked).

    Then there are a lot of personal CD; diffuse magic, Zen Med, and FB.

    He has 2 main ways of generating Chi; fistweave (remember that mistweavers are considered melee classes) or be can Soothing Mist.

    His last talent should be Chi Torpedo for the most part; heck even Xuen is decent.

    Edit: I didn't even cover TFT but use it when there are 5+ people with ReM and your ReM is about to come off CD.
    Last edited by Shinchib; 2012-12-18 at 06:38 PM.

  9. #9
    Thank you. The last time I was over at his house, I almost downloaded WeakAuras for him however at the time I wouldn't have known what items and / or spells needed to be watched for.

    The only additional question I can think to ask at this time, without doing any further research, is should he be refreshing / rolling his ReM literally the entire fight or would that consume too much mana / chi?

  10. #10
    yes. ReM on CD every fight at all times. (Except maybe blade lord if you have good disc's like mine Lol.)

  11. #11
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinobatbird View Post
    The only additional question I can think to ask at this time, without doing any further research, is should he be refreshing / rolling his ReM literally the entire fight or would that consume too much mana / chi?
    It's a little "expensive" but its one of our top heals beside uplift/SCK and eminence. It is our main hot.

    Way better than surging mist for sure.

    Get him a DMF deck. That will help out his regen and they are fairly cheap now.
    Last edited by Shinchib; 2012-12-18 at 10:05 PM.

  12. #12
    Roll it the entire fight. If you have played a druid, it's similar to that in the respect that HoT's need to be rolling at all times. Also, similar to a druid, they are proactive healers. What I mean by this is both druids and monks prepare for the damage coming by rolling the HoT's before the damage is taken, so it can be healed instantly, even if it is only a small tick from a HoT. Paladins and (holy) priests are reactive healers, they heal the damage after it's been done. Sure, both have HoT's, but the mainstay of both of their heals is the 3 heal method (slow, cheap heal/middle speed, middle cost heal/ fast, expensive heals), but all are cast after the damage is done. Not so with monks. They are a combination of both playstyles. You need to be proactive with hot spreading, and the reactive comes from proper use of abilities such as Uplift or Chi Burst, depending on the situation, and which one is needed.

    Like it has been said, monks are considered melee, so if your monk is standing at range on a fight where melee is immune to the damage, he might want to reconsider. On Blade Lord Ta'yak for example, monks will never get (because I don't remember the spell name), a tornado cast at them. They can get hit though if a range is standing behind them, keep that in mind.

    And to answer the last part of your question about it consuming too much mana/chi, if your monk is spending chi as he is gaining it, and never, NEVER casting a mana ability that grants chi when already mana capped, if he uses (since he is glyphed) mana tea on cooldown, he should be able to last most of the fight just fine. Since your druid is feral, if he isn't already using Innervate on someone else, you could have him give it to your monk. It shouldn't be necessary though, if your monk maintains proper chi usage, and keeps mana tea on cooldown, as long as your group avoids the avoidable damage, he shouldn't go oom.

    Lastly, if he starts to fistweave, remind him of one thing: fistweaving is NOT considered DPS'ing. It is healing from melee. You are not jabbing for the DPS, you are jabbing as a method of gaining a 100% guaranteed chi. Tiger palm is only cast for the buff, once every 20 seconds. If Serpent's Zeal via Blackout kick is kept up, that's all that need to be done, once the buff is up, cast Blackout Kick only as a method of maintaining the buff. Unless damage is light, then by all means, DPS your heart out. But the key thing is, mistweaver monks are healers, not DPS. That needs to be remembered when fistweaving.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekerdud View Post
    Roll it the entire fight. If you have played a druid, it's similar to that in the respect that HoT's need to be rolling at all times. Also, similar to a druid, they are proactive healers. What I mean by this is both druids and monks prepare for the damage coming by rolling the HoT's before the damage is taken, so it can be healed instantly, even if it is only a small tick from a HoT. Paladins and (holy) priests are reactive healers, they heal the damage after it's been done. Sure, both have HoT's, but the mainstay of both of their heals is the 3 heal method (slow, cheap heal/middle speed, middle cost heal/ fast, expensive heals), but all are cast after the damage is done. Not so with monks. They are a combination of both playstyles. You need to be proactive with hot spreading, and the reactive comes from proper use of abilities such as Uplift or Chi Burst, depending on the situation, and which one is needed.
    You don't see Druids spamming Rejuv on raids or Shamans glyphing Riptide and spreading that all over the raid. While Renewing Mist is very strong, it's not worth pressing the button and using the mana if the HoT isn't actually going to be healing people. With the increased mana cost and nerf in 5.1, it's not as simple as "use it on cooldown" anymore.

  14. #14
    That's very fight dependent though. On Garalon, if you aren't keeping Renewing on cooldown, your raid will die quickly, especially if your dps is low enough that you have no choice but to 2 heal it. For me, however, normal will of the emperor isn't a bad fight for me to heal. Our DPS is pretty good, so we just 3 heal it just to ensure a wipe doesn't happen. It's 2 pallies and myself, they sit on the tanks, and I heal the raid. Thing is, with that fight, I don't really NEED to heal, so the only time I worry about Renewing is when Titan Gas is less than 20 seconds away, and keep it on the tanks, that's it. There's a lot of avoidable damage via CC'ing the adds, so yes, that is an example of not keeping it on cooldown.

    While both druids and monks might not "spam" their HoTs, both playstyles require the player to know when a certain ability is going to be used, especially AoE ones. If you aren't proactive about it, if a slip up happens without HoT's, it could be a wipe.

    Also, as I mentioned above, you need to maintain proper chi and mana tea usage. If you do, you CAN keep Renewing Mist on cooldown, since casting Renewing Mist is just another way for 100% guaranteed Chi.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    You don't see Druids spamming Rejuv on raids or Shamans glyphing Riptide and spreading that all over the raid. While Renewing Mist is very strong, it's not worth pressing the button and using the mana if the HoT isn't actually going to be healing people. With the increased mana cost and nerf in 5.1, it's not as simple as "use it on cooldown" anymore.


    Dunno about you but my druid can spam rejuvs easily.

  16. #16
    Spamming Renewing Mists isn't about the healing they do, and more about allowing massive Uplifts when required. It takes what feels like ages to prepare for an Uplift - no other healer needs to do that.

    Also I was criticized once for being top of overhealing. I got annoyed with the officer saying it, told him flat out "considering I've been playing my class for less then a month and you've refused to heal even once during my time in the guild, and considering I'm top of healing and my overhealing is the lowest percentage, I think you should rethink your criticism." He shut up then.

    Monks overheal a lot, we have to accept that. So does everyone else, particularly when we're also dominating the other healers - they need to step up their game!

  17. #17
    Tell him he needs to go look at parses for guilds and look at what spells they are using honestly. Why? That means they researched their class.

    70% DPS from Crackling Jade Lightning.....Why?


    Glyph of Surging Mist? Bad. Surging Mist costs a lot of mana and is more or less an OMG spell that shouldn't be randomly targeting other players. It sounds appealing but it's not. This is why we UPLIFT.
    Tiger's Lust? Why even have this on this fight? IDK that teir is just all personal but, I'd go with Momentum. Roll into the fog, speed, roll into the fog, speed...Doesn't cost chi....
    Chi Wave....Ehhh Since the nerf it's ok, not amazing. I like Chi Burst because it hits everyone in it's path + melee instead of bouncing. No CD.
    Rushing Jade wind: Crap. Should be Invoke Xuen, because his damage also heals, IF YOU HAVE YOUR STATUE DOWN. Chi Torpedo if you are on Garalon or any fight where your group is grouped up.

    Gear:
    1. Isn't at haste cap: Needs to be 3148 not in Serpent Stance
    2. SPIRIT IS TOO LOW. This is due to the low low gear.
    3. Trinkets. Please god someone buy this panda a DMF trinket
    4. Chest isn't reforged, and he should be wearing the 497 crafted chest and gloves. Gloves aren't enchanted.
    5. Reforging is really really poor.
    Last edited by Design1685; 2012-12-19 at 07:33 AM.

  18. #18
    If Force and Verve is your problem, what I do is pop Rushing Jade Wind and spam Spinning Crane Kick.. it's more than enough to keep everybody up.. and well, we do have a cooldown in Revival if things are hard.
    Karuzo, mistweaver monk | Macphisto, discipline priest
    <Razzia>, US-Arthas

  19. #19
    There is a lot of good information in this thread that should really help us out. Thank you all for the replies, I really appreciate it.

    I plan to put as much info as I can from this thread as well as from other guides into a document which I will print out and go over with him this weekend at lunch; I'm thinking that he won't mind the "OMG your Monk is bad / stop pressing random buttons" conversation while he is stuffing his face for free - that is the plan anyway.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyse View Post

    70% DPS from Crackling Jade Lightning.....Why?
    Not sure it should be 70%, but CJL is not nearly as bad as it used to be. As of 5.1 it has as much of a chance of generating Chi as Soothing mists, but has the "smart" heal as well. So situationaly it can be used as a filler to top off the raid from some AoE damage while getting Chi for uplift. Again, this has to be use intelligently and not just willy nilly, it is not a cheap spam as it will drain your mana if used all the time, but it is not something to dismiss anymore like it was pre-5.1

    Like some others above, I also keep ReM up as close to 100% as possible, being "proactive" healers it never hurts to have a HoT rolling around on the raid.

    Fistweaving it not nearly as good on your mana as it used to be, since the 5.1 nerfs I almost never use it anymore. Since the cost of jab went up it now is too much of a mana drain if not used 100% correctly. That being said, just like the rest of our spells it has to be used intelligently, if you are in melee and just standing there something is wrong. Even if you just get the 2 stacks of Zeal up and then auto attack while you get some mana back during a lul in the fight, it is free heals at that point for 30 sec.

    Overall, IMO Mistweaver has to be played in a VERY active style. There is no rotation to follow or magic macro that is going to make you good. You have to know ALL of your spells and when they should each be used and then get to know each fight and where those spells/ play styles fit in. It may call for changing from healing at range then rushing into melee fistweaving for a few seconds then going back out.. it all depends on the fight.

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