1. #1

    Question about SV and 4set

    I have 4set; and heroic offpiece legs. 509. Wondering if it's worth breaking 4set for them. I hear the 4set is not that big for SV...

    Only asking this cause we are working on heroic Will tonight and SV out performs.

  2. #2
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    H-Will isn't that huge a DPS check. On our first kill, our rogue died at 30% (he was soloing Strengths), and we still beat the fight ahead of the enrage.

    That being said, you might lose a lot of the effective DPS gain of faster LnLs on this fight because of its mechanics, with AoE-packs and lots of target switching, especially since you probably have a big role on this fight which involves you disengaging everywhere.

  3. #3
    I just heard from some the 4set isn't great for SV; guess they were wrong. With ES trap up it should be proccing a lot

  4. #4
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    LnL has an ICD of 10s, so it can't proc more than every 10s.

    Quick napkin math of the chance to proc after 10 + x seconds, assuming a BA/ExT tick at 11s:

    non-4pc:
    x=1: 20%
    x=3: 36%
    x=5: 48.8%
    x=7: ~59%
    x=9: ~67.2%
    ....most cases after this are irrelevant because, well, hey, the whole ICD has passed without you getting one, so that's a "lost" LnL and is just tough titties, said the kitty.

    4 pc SV:
    x=1: 40%
    x=3: 64%
    x=5: 78.4%
    x=7: 87.04%
    x=9: 92.224%

    As you can see, the chance is quite a bit more than the mathematically fallacious thought that it's just 20% improvement on each tick. In fact, on that 5s tick, which is the sweet spot, really, because you fired your 3rd ES at -8 of your LnL, another at -2, and another at 4s, your chance is improved by almost 30% that you've seen a LnL by then.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    LnL has an ICD of 10s, so it can't proc more than every 10s.

    Quick napkin math of the chance to proc after 10 + x seconds, assuming a BA/ExT tick at 11s:

    non-4pc:
    x=1: 20%
    x=3: 36%
    x=5: 48.8%
    x=7: ~59%
    x=9: ~67.2%
    ....most cases after this are irrelevant because, well, hey, the whole ICD has passed without you getting one, so that's a "lost" LnL and is just tough titties, said the kitty.

    4 pc SV:
    x=1: 40%
    x=3: 64%
    x=5: 78.4%
    x=7: 87.04%
    x=9: 92.224%

    As you can see, the chance is quite a bit more than the mathematically fallacious thought that it's just 20% improvement on each tick. In fact, on that 5s tick, which is the sweet spot, really, because you fired your 3rd ES at -8 of your LnL, another at -2, and another at 4s, your chance is improved by almost 30% that you've seen a LnL by then.
    I say yes for single target because I was playing SV without the 4 piece and my LnL never procced.

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by hakai View Post
    I just heard from some the 4set isn't great for SV; guess they were wrong. With ES trap up it should be proccing a lot
    you know you cannot black arrow and trap at the same time right????


    the 4pc only works for black arrow

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    you know you cannot black arrow and trap at the same time right????


    the 4pc only works for black arrow
    Oh wow -.- So for Will it would be better

  8. #8
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    Explosive trap already procs LnL on cooldown with the 8 targets you should be aoeing inside it. Don't forget you (should) have approximately 70 seconds between aoeing sets of rages, and thus should be throwing up 1-2 black arrows on something between each explosive trap. Each aoe burn shouldn't last more than 20 seconds and thus you shouldn't be using more than 1 explosive trap per set of 8.

    You're better off using the 4 set.
    Last edited by Flustered; 2012-12-20 at 06:24 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    you know you cannot black arrow and trap at the same time right????


    the 4pc only works for black arrow
    Black Arrow / Explosive Trap > Readiness > the other you didn't use.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    LnL has an ICD of 10s, so it can't proc more than every 10s.

    Quick napkin math of the chance to proc after 10 + x seconds, assuming a BA/ExT tick at 11s:

    non-4pc:
    x=1: 20%
    x=3: 36%
    x=5: 48.8%
    x=7: ~59%
    x=9: ~67.2%
    ....most cases after this are irrelevant because, well, hey, the whole ICD has passed without you getting one, so that's a "lost" LnL and is just tough titties, said the kitty.

    4 pc SV:
    x=1: 40%
    x=3: 64%
    x=5: 78.4%
    x=7: 87.04%
    x=9: 92.224%

    As you can see, the chance is quite a bit more than the mathematically fallacious thought that it's just 20% improvement on each tick. In fact, on that 5s tick, which is the sweet spot, really, because you fired your 3rd ES at -8 of your LnL, another at -2, and another at 4s, your chance is improved by almost 30% that you've seen a LnL by then.
    Is it a flat 20% increase (20->40), or is it a 20% increase of the CURRENT chance (20->24)? Any testing done to that? I remember wondering about it back before we even got 4 sets, but as I unlocked it, I had to face that there was no way it'd ever measure up to BM anyway, and just let it be.
    Also, trap shouldn't cause you to proc more than BA does, even on multiple targets, FYI - it clearly states "20% chance when your Black Arrow or Explosive Trap deals damage" which means what it says - it procs when it deals damage. That is not dependant on amount of targets TAKING the damage, as hitting 1 or 10 targets is still just one pulse of damage :<. Atleast that's how it used to work, and I haven't seen anything to think it'd be any different now.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremypwnz View Post
    Black Arrow / Explosive Trap > Readiness > the other you didn't use.
    cause you can do that all right long....

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Is it a flat 20% increase (20->40), or is it a 20% increase of the CURRENT chance (20->24)? Any testing done to that? I remember wondering about it back before we even got 4 sets, but as I unlocked it, I had to face that there was no way it'd ever measure up to BM anyway, and just let it be.
    Also, trap shouldn't cause you to proc more than BA does, even on multiple targets, FYI - it clearly states "20% chance when your Black Arrow or Explosive Trap deals damage" which means what it says - it procs when it deals damage. That is not dependant on amount of targets TAKING the damage, as hitting 1 or 10 targets is still just one pulse of damage :<. Atleast that's how it used to work, and I haven't seen anything to think it'd be any different now.
    From a limited testing perspective is seems to be a flat 20% chance increase.
    Last edited by Arktem; 2012-12-20 at 08:42 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Is it a flat 20% increase (20->40), or is it a 20% increase of the CURRENT chance (20->24)? Any testing done to that? I remember wondering about it back before we even got 4 sets, but as I unlocked it, I had to face that there was no way it'd ever measure up to BM anyway, and just let it be.
    Also, trap shouldn't cause you to proc more than BA does, even on multiple targets, FYI - it clearly states "20% chance when your Black Arrow or Explosive Trap deals damage" which means what it says - it procs when it deals damage. That is not dependant on amount of targets TAKING the damage, as hitting 1 or 10 targets is still just one pulse of damage :<. Atleast that's how it used to work, and I haven't seen anything to think it'd be any different now.
    A multiplicative 20% would make no sense, 24% vs. 20% is negligible and, design-wise, could be nowhere near the BM or even MM 4pc. I have to assume it's additive, for a 40% chance when it deals damage, solely because that 10s ICD exists. 40% would probably be too high if there was no ICD, but I think that with it, it lines up to be a substantial increase in ES fired.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Is it a flat 20% increase (20->40), or is it a 20% increase of the CURRENT chance (20->24)? Any testing done to that? I remember wondering about it back before we even got 4 sets, but as I unlocked it, I had to face that there was no way it'd ever measure up to BM anyway, and just let it be.
    Also, trap shouldn't cause you to proc more than BA does, even on multiple targets, FYI - it clearly states "20% chance when your Black Arrow or Explosive Trap deals damage" which means what it says - it procs when it deals damage. That is not dependant on amount of targets TAKING the damage, as hitting 1 or 10 targets is still just one pulse of damage :<. Atleast that's how it used to work, and I haven't seen anything to think it'd be any different now.
    Eh... I can't remember the last time I used explosive trap on an AoE group where LnL didn't proc pretty much instantaneously. This is not the case with Black Arrow. Pretty much the way it's always worked from my experience... plus it's not like what the ability states has always been 100% accurate. Chimera shot went a very very long time before it finally got updated to say it dealt nature damage (when it always did).

    [19:33:35.467] Spirál casts Explosive Trap
    [19:33:36.246] Spirál casts Explosive Trap on Explosive Trap
    [19:33:37.748] Spirál Explosive Trap Kor'thik Slicer 4180
    [19:33:37.748] Spirál Explosive Trap Sra'thik Shield Master 4148
    [19:33:37.748] Spirál Explosive Trap Sra'thik Shield Master 4221
    [19:33:37.748] Spirál Explosive Trap Kor'thik Slicer *8701*
    [19:33:37.748] Kor'thik Slicer afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:33:37.748] Sra'thik Shield Master afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:33:37.748] Sra'thik Shield Master afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:33:37.748] Kor'thik Slicer afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:33:38.117] Spirál gains Lock and Load from Spirál
    [19:34:25.908] Spirál casts Explosive Trap
    [19:34:26.525] Spirál casts Explosive Trap on Explosive Trap
    [19:34:28.065] Spirál Explosive Trap Set'thik Swiftblade *8653*
    [19:34:28.065] Spirál Explosive Trap Kor'thik Slicer 4210
    [19:34:28.065] Spirál Explosive Trap Set'thik Swiftblade 4199
    [19:34:28.065] Spirál Explosive Trap Sra'thik Shield Master *8649*
    [19:34:28.065] Spirál Explosive Trap Sra'thik Shield Master 4160
    [19:34:28.065] Spirál Explosive Trap Set'thik Swiftblade 4218
    [19:34:28.065] Spirál Explosive Trap Kor'thik Slicer 4207
    [19:34:28.065] Kor'thik Slicer afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:28.065] Set'thik Swiftblade afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:28.065] Sra'thik Shield Master afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:28.065] Sra'thik Shield Master afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:28.065] Set'thik Swiftblade afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:28.065] Kor'thik Slicer afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:28.065] Set'thik Swiftblade afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:28.398] Spirál gains Lock and Load from Spirál
    [19:34:56.012] Spirál casts Explosive Trap
    [19:34:56.461] Spirál casts Explosive Trap on Explosive Trap
    [19:34:57.862] Spirál Explosive Trap Sra'thik Shield Master *8668*
    [19:34:57.862] Spirál Explosive Trap Set'thik Swiftblade *8698*
    [19:34:57.862] Spirál Explosive Trap Sra'thik Shield Master 4146
    [19:34:57.862] Spirál Explosive Trap Set'thik Swiftblade 4160
    [19:34:57.862] Spirál Explosive Trap Kor'thik Slicer *8692*
    [19:34:57.862] Kor'thik Slicer afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:57.862] Sra'thik Shield Master afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:57.862] Set'thik Swiftblade afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:57.862] Sra'thik Shield Master afflicted by Explosive Trap from Spirál
    [19:34:58.235] Spirál gains Lock and Load from Spirál

  15. #15
    If you have a 40% chance to proc it, you'll see plenty of "first hit procs" from explosive trap, just as you will BA. I think you're getting fooled by the fact that there's a slight delay on BA (it doesn't tick instantly), but rather, after a second or two, while explosive trap hits immidiatelly as it lands.

  16. #16
    Sure, but you'd also see plenty of not "first hit" procs. For explosive trap in my logs (on multiple targets), I see an immediate LnL proc about 90% of the time (as even with 40% on 5 targets there is a non-negligible chance you won't get it). For black arrow they are much less common, more typically on the second or third tick.

  17. #17
    I can't seem to beat the RNG Boss I have killed sha every week since release plus coin and have only got the gloves can't get a 2 piece set bonus to save my life.

  18. #18
    I broke my 4 set 496 for 2 509 items. If I get the legs or gloves, I will go back to 3 496 set pieces with 1 509. The 4 set makes up for the difference of having 1 509 off piece. Currently my shoulders are off set (wind lord soooo good), but that may change if empress drops helm seeing as sha is the last boss we will face. Shoulders will be our off set because we have 516 shoulders that drop off elite protectors, assuming you get there before 5.2.

  19. #19
    the set bonus ONLY applys to BA not explosive trap

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