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  1. #21
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    What I do, is using FF right after BW ends (4-set), and then refresh it once it runs out, so I only have 4 seconds outside of BW where I don't have it up, and it will have had 24 seconds to stack up before the next BW, for moar pet dmg.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Koganu View Post
    What I do, is using FF right after BW ends (4-set), and then refresh it once it runs out, so I only have 4 seconds outside of BW where I don't have it up, and it will have had 24 seconds to stack up before the next BW, for moar pet dmg.
    But if you keep dumping your pet's frenzy stacks like that your BW will be weak because it takes approx 50 seconds to build up 5 stacks of frenzy.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2012-12-22 at 06:01 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    If it's up right before BW you pop it ? As in you consume frenzy stacks and then use BW ? If you didn't mean that then it's fine, but if you did then that is most certainly a dps loss, no arguments there. Best case to use it is if you have 5 stacks and you just finished BW. To keep the high dps momentum with faster cobra shots etc. It's more important to have 5 frenzy stacks during BW than any proper FF timing.
    Thats the old cataclysm way of using focus fire, it's different now in MoP because pets are focus starved alot and it gives your pet a focus boost. Focus Fire should be used just before bestial wrath, so should rapid fire for the same reason.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmin View Post
    It's a really complicated issue, I've done a lot of testing (with 4piece).. with 5 frenzy stacks, my pet gets 2 extra auto attacks. during BW. That's all it gets you. With focus fire on me, my pet will generally get 1 extra bite in during Bestial Wrath with his extra focus (popping it on the GCD just before BW), and I get 2 extra autoshots. Then of course there is the extra focus regen I get to help keep from running out of focus during the 16 second duration. So the DPS benefit strictly during BW goes pretty clearly in favor of having focus fire active on the hunter rather than frenzy on the pet.
    you are missing a "small" detail.
    you cant just compare using BW with FF vs BW without FF (ie pet with 5 stacks still on), because theres a third way FF is often being handled, namely using FF straight after BW. (this tactic gets a bit less bang during BW, but gains damage in the downtime, when using FF)
    multiple dummy test always showed FF after BW > no FF usage in my case. haven't testet FF just befor BW though. can't imagine that to be better thought, just for the fact that you yourself only gain 2 autoshots, but using it not under BW gives you significantly more. (faster rota, more spells casted per time = more damage)

  5. #25
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    I use it any time aslong as BW is not up as it gives good damge during this CD and generally always up so can use just after all the time.

  6. #26
    can anyone do the math/test it out with definitive logs as to what's better ? FF right before BW for the extra focus + regen or BW with frenzy.. Cuz frankly I can't trust conjectures.. I sadly don't have time otherwise I would do it myself..

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 11:49 PM ----------

    I honestly think that it's not worth it.. Cuz if stacking RF with BW isn't worth it (which everyone agrees [outside of the opener]) then stacking FF with BW shouldn't be worth it as well, since it's 10% less haste.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    can anyone do the math/test it out with definitive logs as to what's better ? FF right before BW for the extra focus + regen or BW with frenzy.. Cuz frankly I can't trust conjectures.. I sadly don't have time otherwise I would do it myself..
    With my haste, my pet hits every 1.57 seconds without frenzy up. With frenzy that would be 1.31 seconds, with rabid with frenzy that would be .77 without frenzy and with rabid that would be .92.

    Now with a 16 second time frame, you'd get 10 hits without anything up, 12 with frenzy, 20 with frenzy and rabid and 17 without frenzy and with rabid.

    Presuming your pet gets in the bite before BW. Melee hits are on average for me 10k hits and 20k crits, bite is 15k hits and 30k crits (with wild hunt averaged in).

    So without frenzy, going into BW you'd get an extra 15k - 30k (18k-36k with BW) damage and with frenzy you'd get an extra 20k - 40k + the wild hunt damage from using FF after bestial wrath would be 35k - 70k. So it seems better to use it after bestial wrath.

    There is my napkin math for you

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  8. #28
    Plus with the 4 piece you'd be running low after a 16 sec BW (outside of the opener) so the extra regen from faster cobra's plus hasted regen would = even more potential dmg. Yea I can't think of a scenario where it'd be benefitial to use it right before BW..

    But where is the cut off point for FF then ? Is it always press when shiny, or is it worth it to use it at 3 or 4 stacks (if you're low on focus etc)

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    Plus with the 4 piece you'd be running low after a 16 sec BW (outside of the opener) so the extra regen from faster cobra's plus hasted regen would = even more potential dmg. Yea I can't think of a scenario where it'd be benefitial to use it right before BW..

    But where is the cut off point for FF then ? Is it always press when shiny, or is it worth it to use it at 3 or 4 stacks (if you're low on focus etc)
    I just use it if it is going to fall off or after BW regardless of the stacks.

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  10. #30
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    yeah using after BW no matter stacks is most effective to reset and chance to have all for next BW

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Yavania View Post
    yeah using after BW no matter stacks is most effective to reset and chance to have all for next BW
    The issue I have with using it like this is that by using it after BW you are intending to have 5 stacks up of Frenzy up for BW because you believe that 5 stack Frenzy is more beneficial than 5 stack Focus Fire during your BW. If RNG screws you over you may not have 5 stacks of Frenzy up for your next BW. By that logic it means you're really just using Focus Fire as a gamble in that you get a tiny bit of extra DPS while active but you run the risk of screwing over your next BW.

    In my opinion it's either use it at 5 stacks before your BW or don't use it at all.

  12. #32
    one minute is more than enough time to build up frenzy stacks.. RNG is part of the game.. And no we're not using FF as a gamble just to reset stacks. FF is used for the actual haste and regen it provides. Which is much more beneficial outside of BW, since our dps drops once BW is over. And like I said, conjecture doesn't hold any weight. If you claim it's better to use it before BW then support it with numbers. None of the people who claim so have given any sort of numerical evidence so far. So until that happens, no, you shouldn't use FF before BW.

    Even if the numbers tehstool posted were dead even (they aren't), as in the extra focus regen would net x amount of damage during BW and frenzy would also net x amount of damage, that scenario would still favor frenzy (not using FF before BW) because you will most certainly be low on focus after BW and the extra regen you get from it + faster cobras would in turn add y damage.

    Using FF before BW = x damage
    Keeping frenzy and using FF after BW = x + y damage

    Since the slow gain of frenzy stacks once BW is over wouldn't nearly equate to the same amount of gain you would get from using FF.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 08:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    .. it's either use it at 5 stacks after your BW or don't use it at all.
    corrected for you.. ^ would make more sense. If you have 5 stacks coming out of BW, use it immediately. And hopefully it'll be up for the next one. If you don't end up with 5 stacks once BW is over, then don't use it. In that case, you're guaranteed to have 5 stacks for the next BW. I can live by this argument. Since the dps difference between this and always using it after BW regardless of stacks would be minimal.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    Using FF before BW = x damage
    Keeping frenzy and using FF after BW = x + y damage
    You say my theory is invalid without any numbers yet you didn't provide any numbers as to why your theory is best...

    The theory behind using FF before BW is that you and your pet gain increased focus regen during BW which increases the damage done during your BW. BW is a 20% damage increase for your pet and a 10% damage increase for yourself so basic cooldown stacking would tell you that you want to line up the increased focus regen with your increase damage phase. This is also why we use Synapse Springs and Bestial Wrath together instead of at different times. It is why EVERY class stacks all their cooldowns together.

    The main point of Focus Fire (and Rapid Fire) isn't the increased Cobra Shot cast speed, it is the focus regen (which leads to more Bites/Arcane Shots) and the increased auto shot speed (more auto shots while you have a 10% damage buff in BW).

    Because focus fire is used for the focus regen and auto shot speed as opposed to actual cast speed it can be said that;

    Damage during BW = x
    Damage from FF = y

    FF after BW: x + y
    FF with BW x + y*1.3

    if we add some theoritcal numbers into that

    x = 1,000,000
    y = 200,000

    x + y = 1,200,000
    x + y*1.3 = 1,260,000
    Last edited by Glurp; 2012-12-27 at 08:04 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    You say my theory is invalid without any numbers yet you didn't provide any numbers as to why your theory is best...

    The theory behind using FF before BW is that you and your pet gain increased focus regen during BW which increases the damage done during your BW. BW is a 20% damage increase for your pet and a 10% damage increase for yourself so basic cooldown stacking would tell you that you want to line up the increased focus regen with your increase damage phase. This is also why we use Synapse Springs and Bestial Wrath together instead of at different times. It is why EVERY class stacks all their cooldowns together.

    The main point of Focus Fire (and Rapid Fire) isn't the increased Cobra Shot cast speed, it is the focus regen (which leads to more Bites/Arcane Shots) and the increased auto shot speed (more auto shots while you have a 10% damage buff in BW).

    Because focus fire is used for the focus regen and auto shot speed as opposed to actual cast speed it can be said that;

    Damage during BW = x
    Damage from FF = y

    FF after BW: x + y
    FF with BW x + y*1.3

    if we add some theoritcal numbers into that

    x = 1,000,000
    y = 200,000

    x + y = 1,200,000
    x + y*1.3 = 1,260,000
    Please refer to my post. Your equations and math here are incorrect as you will be losing X from BW since your pet doesn't have the increased attack speed, making it show that using it after BW is better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    With my haste, my pet hits every 1.57 seconds without frenzy up. With frenzy that would be 1.31 seconds, with rabid with frenzy that would be .77 without frenzy and with rabid that would be .92.

    Now with a 16 second time frame, you'd get 10 hits without anything up, 12 with frenzy, 20 with frenzy and rabid and 17 without frenzy and with rabid.

    Presuming your pet gets in the bite before BW. Melee hits are on average for me 10k hits and 20k crits, bite is 15k hits and 30k crits (with wild hunt averaged in).

    So without frenzy, going into BW you'd get an extra 15k - 30k (18k-36k with BW) damage and with frenzy you'd get an extra 20k - 40k + the wild hunt damage from using FF after bestial wrath would be 35k - 70k. So it seems better to use it after bestial wrath.

    There is my napkin math for you
    In this case it is just about double the damage you get from using FF after BW.

    There is also really no need to factor in auto shots because you will get the same number either way, but ok. 20k hits to 40k crits. With FF that will give me two more auto shots with my haste. which would be 40k - 80k without BW and 48k - 96k with BW.

    So that would be 23k - 46k (26k -52k with BW) for using FF after BW and 35k-70k for using it after. Still comes out better.

    And my math was wrong i didn't factor in BW with the extra melee hits. 37k - 74k for using it after and 23k - 46k (26k -52k with BW) for using it before.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2012-12-27 at 09:12 PM.

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  15. #35
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    Focus Fire after BW vs. before has the same pet regen for the pet, resulting in the same number of "extra" Bite/Smack/Claws. So, the question is, is that number of extra specials (1-2 max, I imagine) > the 25% auto-attack speed buff which results in a few more auto attacks (which is not focus dependent) which is also buffed by BW?

    I think the answer is no, but that's the math that needs to be done.

    Essentially, the longer you are under Frenzyx5, you're getting a pet attack speed buff which has to be accounted for in re: stacking new buffs. I've done BW-FF immediately after before and still been only at 3-4 stacks by the next BW. If that happens twice, or maybe even once, it's going to be bad. And it does happen, RNG's a bitch, and then you die.

  16. #36
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    essentially you should us FF after BW no matter the stacks.

  17. #37
    How to use FF?

    Right after your BW runs out (unless you pop readiness to get another BW). The stacks should be back up by the next BW.

    Even though, from personal experience FF adds no dps upgrade (unless very minor), in most cases it's going to affect your dps in the wrong way.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Focus Fire after BW vs. before has the same pet regen for the pet, resulting in the same number of "extra" Bite/Smack/Claws. So, the question is, is that number of extra specials (1-2 max, I imagine) > the 25% auto-attack speed buff which results in a few more auto attacks (which is not focus dependent) which is also buffed by BW?

    I think the answer is no, but that's the math that needs to be done.
    Refer to Tehstool's post. Although rough napkin math, he did provide those numbers (based on his gear). And they suggest using FF after BW is better. Some rough napkin math of my own (I had some time) show similar results. Another thing that supported this was 'invigoration'. The roughly 1-2 extra attacks (albeit based on rng) if they end up proccing invigoration during BW through FF, that's completely wasted. Whereas if FF is used after BW, those couple of 'possible' invigoration procs would be pretty useful and would boost dps.

    Even if that is not completely definitive, I browsed through a whole bunch of top parses from the best hunters in each respective bracket. Zerogravity and Sanqui for 10m and Truefire, Kennyloggins, Dyveriate for 25m. These people have the highest amount of top 10 parses and when looked at their cd usage, they ALL use FF after BW, and not before. So to the people who have somehow discovered this new magical technique of using it before, the top hunters in the world don't agree with you, the math doesn't agree with you. So that's that. Case closed.

    Now the only thing left is to figure out whether it's better to always use it after BW regardless of stacks or only with 5 stacks.. I will look at the logs in more depth later when I have some time.
    Last edited by Saoron; 2012-12-28 at 10:36 AM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    Refer to Tehstool's post. Although rough napkin math, he did provide those numbers (based on his gear). And they suggest using FF after BW is better. Some rough napkin math of my own (I had some time) show similar results. Another thing that supported this was 'invigoration'. The roughly 1-2 extra attacks (albeit based on rng) if they end up proccing invigoration during BW through FF, that's completely wasted. Whereas if FF is used after BW, those couple of 'possible' invigoration procs would be pretty useful and would boost dps.

    Even if that is not completely definitive, I browsed through a whole bunch of top parses from the best hunters in each respective bracket. Zerogravity and Sanqui for 10m and Truefire, Kennyloggins, Dyveriate for 25m. These people have the highest amount of top 10 parses and when looked at their cd usage, they ALL use FF after BW, and not before. So to the people who have somehow discovered this new magical technique of using it before, the top hunters in the world don't agree with you, the math doesn't agree with you. So that's that. Case closed.

    Now the only thing left is to figure out whether it's better to always use it after BW regardless of stacks or only with 5 stacks.. I will look at the logs in more depth later when I have some time.
    I looked through most of Kennyloggin's ranked fights as BM and there seems to be no definitive way he uses Focus Fire. Sometimes it is used just before BW, sometimes just after BW and sometimes it is used half way between BW uses. My guess is that he just presses it whenever it reaches 5 stacks assuming Lust/Rapid fire aren't also active.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    Refer to Tehstool's post. Although rough napkin math, he did provide those numbers (based on his gear). And they suggest using FF after BW is better. Some rough napkin math of my own (I had some time) show similar results. Another thing that supported this was 'invigoration'. The roughly 1-2 extra attacks (albeit based on rng) if they end up proccing invigoration during BW through FF, that's completely wasted. Whereas if FF is used after BW, those couple of 'possible' invigoration procs would be pretty useful and would boost dps.

    Even if that is not completely definitive, I browsed through a whole bunch of top parses from the best hunters in each respective bracket. Zerogravity and Sanqui for 10m and Truefire, Kennyloggins, Dyveriate for 25m. These people have the highest amount of top 10 parses and when looked at their cd usage, they ALL use FF after BW, and not before. So to the people who have somehow discovered this new magical technique of using it before, the top hunters in the world don't agree with you, the math doesn't agree with you. So that's that. Case closed.

    Now the only thing left is to figure out whether it's better to always use it after BW regardless of stacks or only with 5 stacks.. I will look at the logs in more depth later when I have some time.
    I was agreeing with the position that FF after BW is the way to use it best, if at all. :P

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 02:10 PM ----------

    Frankly, I wish we could track in WoL Frenzyx5 uptime, as opposed to Frenzyx1-4 uptime. I'd like to see how long the top hunters hold a 5 stack, at all, the average time to reach a full stack, etc.

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