Why couldn't the Lich King kill Kil'jaeden or maybe even Sargeras?

[Divineknight13]

If one hit from Frostmourne can kill someone and steal their soul, does that mean the Lich King can kill anyone under the right circumstances. Also why didn't Arthas form a plan and take a legion of scourge to bring down Kil'Jaeden in a surprise attack?

go watch tales of the past 3 that explains it all for you

[Flappy]

I'm going to play the devil's advocate. I think if things had gone differently, and Arthas wasn't stopped back in WotLK, he stood a fighting chance. The scourge, after all, was created by the legion to soften up Azeroth for their taking. So the scourge was, in a sense, doing the heavy lifting. Also, the scourge is unique in the fact that they have limitless power. Each soul that Frostmourne consumes made the LK stronger, and each person felled by the scourge just bolstered their number.

I think Arthas would've had a pretty good chance against Kil'Jaeden if he had beaten us before. Also to say things like "They created him therefore he can't beat his creator." Right. Like a creation has never risen up against it's creator before. *rolls eyes*

[Drithien]

Considering Kil'Jaeden created the Lich King, I find it difficult to believe the Lich King could do much to him, let alone Sargeras.

That is a valid thought for one to make. However, you don't take into account the fact that Kil'Jaeden sent Illidan to destroy the Lich King because he was becoming far more powerful than Kil'Jaeden intended him to be, and there was danger that he would turn out to be a rival to him rather than a servant. What is more, Kil'Jaeden, at the very best postponing, for a long time, his invasion of Azeroth by destroying the Lich King, even worse endangering the invasion alltogether, shows that the Lich King was too great a possible threat. A creation is not always less powerful than its creator. Finally, the danger doesn't even stop there, because after the Lich King merged with Arthas the new entity was even more powerful. So, I think that it is safe to say that the new Lich King was a very big danger to Kil'Jaeden.

As far as the original post's question is concerned however, I think that it's just one of those fundamental errors in the creation of a story, which unfortunately, WarCraft's lore seems to have in abundance.

[Justignoreme]

If one hit from Frostmourne can kill someone and steal their soul, does that mean the Lich King can kill anyone under the right circumstances. Also why didn't Arthas form a plan and take a legion of scourge to bring down Kil'Jaeden in a surprise attack?

Frostmourne is powerful against mortals. It doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell against Demon or Elemental Lords, Titans, Dragon Aspects, True Gods/Goddesses (Hakkar/Elune) or Old Gods. The Lich King and Scourge's power was in dominating mortals by making every one that fell in combat return as new rank and file for the Scourge. Frostmourne couldn't take anything from Illidan following his defeat, and it was parried by an enchanted Elven blade wielded by Kael'thas. It's powerful but only in one realm, and thats taking out Mortals and trapping their souls.

---------- Post added 2012-12-20 at 06:16 AM ----------

I'm going to play the devil's advocate. I think if things had gone differently, and Arthas wasn't stopped back in WotLK, he stood a fighting chance. The scourge, after all, was created by the legion to soften up Azeroth for their taking. So the scourge was, in a sense, doing the heavy lifting. Also, the scourge is unique in the fact that they have limitless power. Each soul that Frostmourne consumes made the LK stronger, and each person felled by the scourge just bolstered their number.

A number that pales in comparison to what the Legion has done. The Scourge wasn't doing the heavy lifting; the Legion *needed* a portal to move its troops through. They needed the Well, the Dark Portal, the Sunwell whatever, to get into Azeroth and launch an invasion. Mortals were the only means of doing it, but mortals, until Undeath came about, proved to be unreliable or even deceptive, beating the Demons at their own game of treachery (like Illidan). They needed something reliable and insanely obedient. They just didn't count of the Scourge being obedient only to the Lich King, not the Legion.

[bionics]

That is a valid thought for one to make. However, you don't take into account the fact that Kil'Jaeden sent Illidan to destroy the Lich King because he was becoming far more powerful than Kil'Jaeden intended him to be, and there was danger that he would turn out to be a rival to him rather than a servant. What is more, Kil'Jaeden, at the very best postponing, for a long time, his invasion of Azeroth by destroying the Lich King, even worse endangering the invasion alltogether, shows that the Lich King was too great a possible threat. A creation is not always less powerful than its creator. Finally, the danger doesn't even stop there, because after the Lich King merged with Arthas the new entity was even more powerful. So, I think that it is safe to say that the new Lich King was a very big danger to Kil'Jaeden.

As far as the original post's question is concerned however, I think that it's just one of those fundamental errors in the creation of a story, which unfortunately, WarCraft's lore seems to have in abundance.

Well said. I think the case of Kil'Jaeden creating the Lich King can in some way be seen as analogous on a smaller scale to humans creating Skynet or the humans creating the Machines in the Matrix. The Lich King was created with the intent to be a powerful weapon with the power to conquer Azeroth for him. The Lich King's power grew exponentially and perhaps at some point he may have been able to overtake Kil'Jaeden.

Sargeras is another story, though. Arthas is naught but an armored gnat in comparison to his power.

[Zoma]

I'm pretty sure it has to land the killing blow to take their soul...

Pretty much this. Keep in mind that both Illidan and Mal'Ganis survived injuries given to them by Frostmourne. Frostmourne isn't an auto-kill the moment it breaks the skin.

[Deleted]

Ok, let's assume that Kil'jaden and Sargeras have souls. Let's also assume Frostmourne is strong enough to absorb said souls.

How could the Lich King have gone to them? Like, walk to the Dark Portal and go to Outland and take a portal from there? There's some Horde and Alliance armies in the way... and you need an army to pass the Burning Legion army, so he'd have needed to take the Scourge with him too. So a slow moving force protecting a commander moving through the areas like Lordaeron, where the forsaken created weapons specifically for the Scourge, Khaz Modan, with the dwarves and their siege engines, and Stormwind, with the humans. Let's not forget that he'd also need to pass his army to Eastern Kingdoms in first place, how? In boats? What boats? Sure, he can make weak transports, but those are like shooting practice for Horde and Alliance.

No, for the Lich King to even think of attacking the Legion he'd need to have no threat near him. And as such, Azeroth needed to be made undead first.

[bionics]

What kind of baffles me is how the Scourge would supposedly be "more powerful" without a Lich King at the helm. Because they'd be "uncontrolled and wild." How does that make even a lick of sense?

That's like saying a ragtag bunch of grunting neanderthals with spears would be more effective in war than a skilled military force with a commander-in-chief. (Please refrain from all Ewoks vs. The Empire comparisons here.)

[Tenjen]

I dont think the Lich King was quite there yet but the thing about the nature of the Lich King and Arthas is that in time (not much at all depending on how much of azeroth he would have infested) he would have gained the power to stand up to the legion's masters.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Arthas VS Kil'jaedan would be an evenly matched fight, since KJ is the one that made the Lich King originally.

Arthas VS Sargeras would be a roflstomp for Sargeras. Sargeras is the strongest being out there unless Blizz retcons it to be the Old Gods.

[Deleted]

Well if we have to be objective..

Sargeras right now i dont think is a match for anyone, so anyone would lose.

Kiljaeden vs Arthas.. if it was during wotlk maybe they could have had a even match but if we talk about a Arthas that won against us and against Deathwing ( because he would have killed deathwing by himself without the need of the ds after stealing all the countless souls during his victory in wotlk ) , they yes Arthas would definitely win.

Dont forget that often the student surpasses the master, thats they only way that things get to improve.

And lets not forget that illidan while being a demon lost utterly against Arthas and the frostmourne at his early stages.

[Dreknar20]

What kind of baffles me is how the Scourge would supposedly be "more powerful" without a Lich King at the helm. Because they'd be "uncontrolled and wild." How does that make even a lick of sense?

its not that the Scourge is "more powerful" without a Lich King
The Scourge is still as powerful, but Arthas was holding back the Scourge from just easily over-running the entire world

[LordDios]

What kind of baffles me is how the Scourge would supposedly be "more powerful" without a Lich King at the helm. Because they'd be "uncontrolled and wild." How does that make even a lick of sense?

That's like saying a ragtag bunch of grunting neanderthals with spears would be more effective in war than a skilled military force with a commander-in-chief. (Please refrain from all Ewoks vs. The Empire comparisons here.)

the last shred of arthas' soul was holding them back is my understanding, keeping them somewhat under control.

[Dreknar20]

the last shred of arthas' soul was holding them back is my understanding, keeping them somewhat under control.

didnt that turn out to be false?

Wsnt he holding back the Scourge because it was part of his plan.
He wanted to lure the best of Azeroth to his doorstep.

[Kaleredar]

Pretty much this. Keep in mind that both Illidan and Mal'Ganis survived injuries given to them by Frostmourne. Frostmourne isn't an auto-kill the moment it breaks the skin.

Arthas wasn't yet the Lich King when he dealt those blows, though. And I actually think Mal'Ganis was killed... but like a demon, he just... Recoalesced... in the twisting nether once more. It's a shame they forgot about him at the end of WotLK. Would have been interesting to fight him in ICC.

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

Kil'jaeden created the Lich King from the spirit of the orcish shaman Ner'zhul , im pretty sure Frostmourne cannot handle to kill its creators or maybe demons dont have souls lol , cuz Frostmourne takes souls!

I don't agree. An apprentice can always kill their master if they're strong enough. We don't live in a universe where everything stays the same. If that were so, we could not defeat any of the badguys...

[Soulwind]

The way I see it:

Illidan < The Lich King < Deathwing ~ Kil'jaeden ~ Azshara <<<<< The Old Gods* <<<<< Sargeras

*Each one of them alone, there are some theories about their power while working together, but we also know they have been enemies in the past (or, at least, their minions have), so I don't consider them a faction/family/same-being just yet.

I think the Lich King is a dangerous character for the people of Azeroth, and his army is a fearful one, but he was given his power BY Kil'jaeden, and his body is still that of a human. He is no rival for the an Aspect, the most powerful Eredar of the Burning Legion or the most powerful mage Azeroth has ever seen. And those are still mortals, toys for the Old Gods and the Titans.

[Kisho]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet: Bolvar Fordragon.

He's proof that it's about the strength of your will, your fortitude and unwavering determination, that determines if you can be controlled/have your spirit stolen by the Lich King.

The Lich King took months trying to break Bolvar, but in the end was unsuccessful. Also, see Sylvanas, who managed to break free of his control. And why did the Lich King never try to use Uther the Lightbringer against us? Uther's spirit was trapped in Frostmourne, ready and waiting to be used. But he never did. Why? Because Uther would be too strong to control.

So to bring this all back to the original question... Kil'jaeden and Sargeras are two of the most powertful entities in the known Warcraft universe. If the Lich King can struggle with breaking the will of a mortal human, how on Earth is he going to take down Kil'jaeden and Sargeras?

[Felarion]

because Kil'Jaeden is creator of the lich king, so his creation is no match for grand warlock At least i fell that way

[FraQture]

Kil'jaeden made Frostmourne so I doubt it's that dangerous to him. Let alone Sargeras.

Origin

When Ner'zhul was transformed into the Lich King by Kil'jaeden, his disembodied spirit was shackled to a magical suit of armor as well as the runeblade Frostmourne, and trapped within an icy tomb called the Frozen Throne. Both the armor and the blade were crafted by the Nathrezim for the purpose of containing and controlling the Lich King.