Why couldn't the Lich King kill Kil'jaeden or maybe even Sargeras?

[TJ]

You're just full of shit just as much as you think I am. Read the lore? Where are you getting your sources? Kil'Jaeden enslaved the race, he did not manipulate them telepathically or through the mind("The exact powers at the Deceiver's command are unknown. As his ultimatum to Illidan and his appearance to Ner'zhul and the orcs exemplifies, he is a master of illusions. Kil'jaeden has also shown ability to control his overall size (an ability shared by Archimonde), but that may not be the limit to his shapeshifting abilities. Though these are the only powers observed in recent years, assuming that these cantrips are the limits of his power is a grave mistake. He is credited with enslaving the Dreadlords, a feat that would have required immense cunning and awesome magic, and his rank within the Legion and the eredar are listed as higher than Archimonde's. Even prior to the eredar's transformation, Velen acknowledged that Kil'jaeden was his, as well as Archimonde's, superior in matters of the arcane."). With ease? I don't recall them mentioning 'with ease' anywhere. And don't get your sources(If you actually have any) from WoWwiki because they are as well filled with a bunch of Sargeras and Legion fan boys(Such as yourself). Wowpedia is a better site for sources.

There were 5 Old Gods and their armies, but there was said to be hundreds of Titans(Though only a few known Titans) along with their armies. What I meant is, you can kill them, but once they are killed, their presence will still linger and haunt the area forever. Yes they can be killed, as well as titans. You're are always saying "stop making things up" but "Ohh yeah the Titans can kill the Old Gods by pressing one button". No where near the strength? If they were actually no where near, then they wouldn't have stood a chance at all, and the war would of lasted probably a couple of days. It said one by one the Titans managed to destroy the Elemental Lords and their dark masters(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bEDM...8DScwz-wKYXPLc) so if they were really THAT weak from what you're telling me, they could of just killed them all at the same time with ease. Also, a titan did fall, and not fall as in "C'Thun tripped him". He fell as in died. And who knows, maybe more Titans have fell whom they haven't mentioned.

I'm not even going to argue with this one because you're being very hypocritical.

I beg to differ that I am the one who needs to reread the lore. You sir are such a hypocrite. You're are obviously going to have people backing you up because they are just as much of a Sargeras' fanboy as you are. "Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde can kill Deathwing with ease" oh please, quit it. Deathwing accomplished much more then Archimonde. Don't even say they are the ones who caused the first sundering, because they didn't. And where the hell does it say Archimonde is only afraid of Deathwing because of the dragon soul? I never heard or read anything that had mentioned that. And fine you got on the last quote, but I specifically remember reading that Azshara was much more powerful then Mannoroth and he knew it, and the only ones you could match them is Kil'Jaeden, Archimonde and Sargeras'(Though the last one is obviously exaggerating). But since I have no proof, you won for that point.

After thing I'm done arguing. We both currently do not have enough information on both the Old gods and Sargeras' to know there true powers, since the events that happened between the Titans and Old Gods was mentioned very brief.

There were 5 Old Gods and their armies, but there was said to be hundreds of Titans along with their armies.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 11:08 PM ----------

A titan did fall. And fell, as in died. Also, this is some information frm the Dungen Journal "Countless ages ago, Warlord Zon'ozz and his soldiers waged endless war against the forces of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron. Millennia have passed, but the warlord still serves the chaotic might of the Old God N'Zoth. Deathwing has now unleashed this legendary faceless one to crush the defenders of Wyrmrest Temple."

Wowpedia is pretty much Wowwiki.. most of the descriptions are word by word the same. Everything I've said is on wowpedia and wiki.. apart from my opinions ofcourse. I also like how you've completely broken out into rage and insults because I don't agree ;D

However I can agree with "We both currently do not have enough information on both the Old gods and Sargeras' to know there true powers, since the events that happened between the Titans and Old Gods was mentioned very brief."

[Zarandra]

Considering it took the help of four Dragon Aspects to bring Deathwing down, I'd say pretty damn powerful.
Lich King empowered by Old Gods? I don't even want to know...

And blizz said that Deathwing could take on ALL of azeroth on and still win. He only died due to the Dragon soul. Without the Dragon Soul most if not ALL of Azeroth would serve Deathwing or be killed by him

[TJ]

Long posts trying to prove different sides, both claiming that the other is just making stuff up and neither is providing any sources for those particular claims. Glorious debate in here!

People, people. Why have the Old Gods been brought up so many times in this thread? It's not about them, and none of the three characters this is about has any powers bestowed upon them by any Old God, so they're completely unrelevant.

Do I really need to link wiki/pedia? that is where everything I've read is from and is the source. Whilst the Old Gods aren't in this thread it's because a debate was started whether they are a match for Sargeras. People digress on MMO Champion, it's nothing new ^^

[Flagobha]

this thread if filled with so many speculations and guesses

[Deleted]

Also, Deathwing caused the second sundering WITHOUT the use of the Dragon soul, and was about to cause a second Cataclysm which would of destroyed all of Azeroth rather then crippling it, with use of his own raw power, something I'd like to see Kil'Jaeden do.

That's nothing compared to Malygos, he could destroy the world ten times over.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

That's nothing compared to Malygos, he could destroy the world ten times over.

Deathwing was still stronger and even what Malygos said isn't exactly able to be proven.

[TheAmazingFeedz]

Do I really need to link wiki/pedia? that is where everything I've read is from and is the source. Whilst the Old Gods aren't in this thread it's because a debate was started whether they are a match for Sargeras. People digress on MMO Champion, it's nothing new ^^

If the other person claims to know the lore, then I don't see a point in sourcing everything. And yes, you are to blame as well, not just me. Another thing, sometimes it is copied word for word, but Wowpedia has moderators and admins who edit and add information, whereas WoWwiki anyone who creates an account can edit and add information.

[BHD]

Do I really need to link wiki/pedia? that is where everything I've read is from and is the source. Whilst the Old Gods aren't in this thread it's because a debate was started whether they are a match for Sargeras. People digress on MMO Champion, it's nothing new ^^

Well, when both you and Feedz claim that the other one has his sources wrong it's probably a good idea to link some kind of source when debating

It's nothing new, no, but it still shouldn't happen >.<

[Wildmoon]

Who said Old gods were outnumbered? -_-" In Ordering of Azeroth, it was stated old god's army of faceless ones are endless and they had elemental lords and their minions as well. Combined force of them were defeated eventually by almighty titans with no Sargeras at that time LOL. People should stop making shit up and read the lore. Yes the titans fell in battle but whats the point? He could just be some noname titan. None of Pantheon fell. They are the most powerful of their race. You know there were more titans than the guys in Pantheon. If I remember right from WotA trilogy Archimonde said that he would deal with that whelp(DW) after legion had Dragon Soul. I didn't think he feared DW but DS.

[TheAmazingFeedz]

Who said Old gods were outnumbered? -_-" In Ordering of Azeroth, it was stated old god's army of faceless ones are endless and they had elemental lords and their minions as well. Combined force of them were defeated eventually by almighty titans with no Sargeras at that time LOL. People should stop making shit up and read the lore.

It is said that there were more Titans in the Pantheon then there were Old gods on Azeroth at the time(http://www.wowpedia.org/Pantheon) There were also more Titans, since it is stated that C'Thun had killed a Titan, in which seems to not be mentioned as member of the Pantheon(Or were there different groups of Titans?). Anyways, the Titans also broke their citadels and imprisoned them one by one, which proves that it took more then 1 titan to imprison one."One by one, the elemental lords fell, and their forces dispersed." I can't seem to find it, but it had also stated the Titans shattered the Old Gods citadels one by one and ended their threat on Azeroth by imprisoning them.


Also, the Old gods were fighting each other before the arival of the Titans, stated in the dungeon journal "Countless ages ago, Warlord Zon'ozz and his soldiers waged endless war against the forces of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron. Millennia have passed, but the warlord still serves the chaotic might of the Old God N'Zoth. Deathwing has now unleashed this legendary faceless one to crush the defenders of Wyrmrest Temple." So the titans did have an advantage over the Old Gods.

You tell me to stop making things up, so back up your theory with sources. I know I was being little bit of a hypocrite earlier in this thread, but I will now on source my arguments.

[Wildmoon]

It is said that there were more Titans in the Pantheon then there were Old gods on Azeroth at the time(http://www.wowpedia.org/Pantheon) There were also more Titans, since it is stated that C'Thun had killed a Titan, in which seems to not be mentioned as member of the Pantheon(Or were there different groups of Titans?). Anyways, the Titans also broke their citadels and imprisoned them one by one, which proves that it took more then 1 titan to imprison one."One by one, the elemental lords fell, and their forces dispersed." I can't seem to find it, but it had also stated the Titans shattered the Old Gods citadels one by one and ended their threat on Azeroth by imprisoning them.


Also, the Old gods were fighting each other before the arival of the Titans, stated in the dungeon journal "Countless ages ago, Warlord Zon'ozz and his soldiers waged endless war against the forces of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron. Millennia have passed, but the warlord still serves the chaotic might of the Old God N'Zoth. Deathwing has now unleashed this legendary faceless one to crush the defenders of Wyrmrest Temple." So the titans did have an advantage over the Old Gods.

You tell me to stop making shit, so back up your theory with sources.

They combined their forces to fight the titans anyway. What was said in the ordering of Azeroth was that after all Old gods's armies were destroyed,the titans shattered their citadel and defeated them. So, what's the point? It wasn't even stated that the titans brought their army.

[UnknownShadows00]

In terms of Sargeras vs. Lich King, as much as I love LK let's not forget, the "Eye" of Sargeras was literally able to tear Northrend apart been it not for Malfurion's disruption of its spell.

[Wildmoon]

It is said that there were more Titans in the Pantheon then there were Old gods on Azeroth at the time(http://www.wowpedia.org/Pantheon) There were also more Titans, since it is stated that C'Thun had killed a Titan, in which seems to not be mentioned as member of the Pantheon(Or were there different groups of Titans?). Anyways, the Titans also broke their citadels and imprisoned them one by one, which proves that it took more then 1 titan to imprison one."One by one, the elemental lords fell, and their forces dispersed." I can't seem to find it, but it had also stated the Titans shattered the Old Gods citadels one by one and ended their threat on Azeroth by imprisoning them.


Also, the Old gods were fighting each other before the arival of the Titans, stated in the dungeon journal "Countless ages ago, Warlord Zon'ozz and his soldiers waged endless war against the forces of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron. Millennia have passed, but the warlord still serves the chaotic might of the Old God N'Zoth. Deathwing has now unleashed this legendary faceless one to crush the defenders of Wyrmrest Temple." So the titans did have an advantage over the Old Gods.

You tell me to stop making things up, so back up your theory with sources. I know I was being little bit of a hypocrite earlier in this thread, but I will now on source my arguments.

There are other titans other than the guys in Pantheon. The pantheon is just their leader.

[Synros]

When creating something, you never make that creation capable of exceeding your own power.

[TheAmazingFeedz]

They combined their forces to fight the titans anyway. What was said in the ordering of Azeroth was that after all Old gods's armies were destroyed,the titans shattered their citadel and defeated them. So, what's the point? It wasn't even stated that the titans brought their army.

Where does it say they combined their forces when the Titans arrived on Azeroth?

Edit: It wasn't really specified anywhere that they allied when the Titans arrived on Azeroth, so it right now all we can guess is that they were still independent and not unified as one faction.

[CaptainArlong]

Lots of people don't know their lore... Kil'jaeden was afraid of the Lich King. Yes, he created him, but he made him incredibly powerful, which is why his soul was encased in ice. The Lich King (Ner'zhul's soul) went looking for a body so he could be freed. He found one, and Kil'jaeden lost it and wanted to find the new Lich King so he could try to stop him.

Warcraft 3 manual. Read it.

[Notos]

Lots of people don't know their lore... Kil'jaeden was afraid of the Lich King. Yes, he created him, but he made him incredibly powerful, which is why his soul was encased in ice. The Lich King (Ner'zhul's soul) went looking for a body so he could be freed. He found one, and Kil'jaeden lost it and wanted to find the new Lich King so he could try to stop him.

Warcraft 3 manual. Read it.

As much as I love the lore in the manual, you have to remember that it's all subject to retconning at a whim from Blizz, like the Eredar/Draenei for example.

[Bryntrollian]

Arthas wasn't yet the Lich King when he dealt those blows, though. And I actually think Mal'Ganis was killed... but like a demon, he just... Recoalesced... in the twisting nether once more. It's a shame they forgot about him at the end of WotLK. Would have been interesting to fight him in ICC.

Mal ganis wasn't forgotten he was actually leading the scarlet onslaught and we killed him on the last quest chain

[Zoma]

Mal ganis wasn't forgotten he was actually leading the scarlet onslaught and we killed him on the last quest chain

We didn't kill him, he ported away.

[Eldar45]

I thought the reason that The Lich King was caged in the Frozen Throne was because even Kil'Jaeden feared the monster he had just created, and didn't want him to get out of control.

Then, when Ner'Zhul merged with Arthas, the Lich King became vastly more powerful than before. And then again, Frostmourn takes souls and those souls feed the Lich King's power. There is no telling how powerful the Lich King was before his defeat. I do know that he was able to snuff the lifes out of Azeroth's greatest heroes after playing with them for ten minutes. Even Deathwing couldn't do that.

As for The Lich King vs Deathwing. The Lich King plays with his soon to be new toys for 10 minutes before killing you, and in reality the Light is the only thing that defeats the Lich King. Deathwing is actually held at bay by the heroes. Though the heroes couldn't have defeated Deathwing without the Dragonsoul, they were still able to delay his casting of the second Cataclysm.

If The Lich King had wanted to kill you, and Tirion, he could and would have without even breaking a sweat. His own arrogance and the Light are what brought him down.

I say this because I think that The Lich King is by far the most powerful being that the heroes have fought thus far. The Old God's were slain with some minor health, Illidan was slain with the help of only one other mortal. Deathwing was held back long enough for Thrall to do his Goku impersonation to kill him. The Lich King? It took the full force of the Light to defeat him, and that was only enough to shatter Frostmourne and dispell a lot of the Lich King's power.