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  1. #1

    Frost Bomb or Living Bomb on Wind Lord Mel'jarak as Frost

    I got in an argument with people in my guild a few nights ago when they protested as to why I wasn't using Frost Bomb. They pointed to the top mages (all fire) who were all using Frost Bomb. Their argument is essentially "those top mages are better than you, therefore they're right and you're wrong."

    As frost, I get more dps when I use Living Bomb as Frost spec because of the increased Brain Freeze procs from Living Bomb spread.

    Is it faulty for assuming that because the top mages (who are FIRE) use Frost Bomb, that my dps will go up if I use it (as FROST spec)? They highlighted the fact that a large percentage of their damage came from that one spell.

    My argument is that just because their damage came mostly from that source doesn't mean that the spell itself causes them to do more damage...because then you're neglecting the fact that they're getting far fewer Frostfire Bolt casts...and ALSO, Frost Bomb can be quite clunky since it has a cast time, and a cooldown that differs from the time it takes to explode (causing weird gaps when you can't refresh the bomb when you want to). Also, they might do more of their damage from that source, whereas my damage will derive more of itself from Frostfire Bolt than theirs...and thanks to the extra Frostfire Bolts I'm getting, and a more seamless rotation using instant-cast-no-cooldown Living Bomb, I feel that my single target damage would be better at bursting down the kill targets quicker (causing the linked adds to die and giving us less mechanics to deal with).

    Keep in mind...this is all moot now because I went back to fire after they gave us the courtesy buff back to 1.30 critical mass and now I'm raping the charts again. The only reason they were trouble-shooting my dps that night was because I was pulling really low numbers due to other factors that they didn't know about, and that I neglected to tell them (out of fear of annoying them with long-winded vent chatter).

    My friend, when revisiting this later, argued that because I'm not a top-of-the-parses-performing mage in a top heroic guild, it means that my speculation on this issue is big-headed, and that it's fool-hearty to think I might be using a more optimal bomb than them (even though they're fire and I was frost at the time).

    Restated question: On that fight, wouldn't Living Bomb be a better choice for Frost-specced mages since they get increased single target damage, and a better suited bomb for the other 50% of the fight (when all adds are dead and you're just attacking Wind Lord)? Remember, as those mobs die off, Frost Bomb does less and less damage...until finally you're stuck with just 1 target (the boss itself) and using the worst suited bomb for 1 target fights. Parses show mages using Frost Bomb, but I'm of the opinion that most are doing it because they've been told to do it by merely looking at other parses and simulations of multi-add situations. Might the hordes of mages be just following the FotM spec choices without questioning them and missing out on a more optimal choice?

  2. #2
    The Patient Berkhtar's Avatar
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    Frostbomb is basically the best option for fights with 5 or more adds, in this case the first 2 thirds of phase 1. If you have problems with the enrage I would suggest switching to FB. I play with LB, since it is instant and the dmg in cleave situations is only smaller by a very small margin.

    During P2 LB is certainly the better option.

    All the stuff is irrelevant btw if you use LotC from Elegon... then you have to us use LB or NT.

    If you are able to down the boss, the choice of your bomb should not matter... the dmg differene is not that big. If you really have problems with your dps is is mist probably not because of your bomb.

  3. #3
    it depends on the trinkets.. if u have LOTC but you are frost spec u need living bomb or NT because u wont get ur trinket to proc otherwise.. some mages that are fire use frost bomb because hey.. all the rest of their skills are dots so they proc LOTC anyway... i agree frostbomb is weak as shit on a single target.. but mostly ur low dmg in the end phase as frost would be backed up by the high burst dmg from the start.

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    First, the proc of FFB won't change with the number of bomb. Whatever your bomb choice, you will obtain globally the same number of proc : predictable with FB, a little random with LV and more random with NT.

    Second, this fight have 2 parts:

    • AOE on the adds with maybe an add on focus depending on your strat
    • single target on the boss

    For the add phase, damages come from multi target spell (Ice Lance, Bomb, Frozen Orb). For the bomb choice, it's more a question of play style and trinket, between LV and FB.

    For the boss phase, the choice of the bomb is the same, since there isn't a better bomb on single target : FB with Essence or LV with Light.
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  5. #5
    I have not played my mage since the beginning of MOP so all I had to go by was comparing logs and the big difference i seen was frost bomb for frost mages as well not only fire. We solo tank it so I would rather have higher cleave/AOE damage to get the adds down as fast as we can because our tank does die on occasion, but I do understand that it could be more damage in the last phase which is single target to use LV instead of FB. We were not only picking on you our locks were doing terrible as well I was just looking for ways to improve dps since all 3 of you have the gear to do much higher numbers. Here is the logs from our last kill it shows him as arcane for the kill but he was switching specs between attempts. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5612&e=6005

    and an armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...romagik/simple
    Someone who actually plays a mage may be able to give much better advise than me as to what can be done to improve dps.

    and here is a previous kill with him as fire since he says hes going back to fire now this is pre nerf i belive
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8954&e=9370
    Last edited by Longrod Vonhugendong; 2012-12-18 at 09:12 AM.

  6. #6
    In fairly run-of-the-mill fire gear, look at this post by me: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19192152

    Which plots out the damage of different bombs on multiple targets, these values change heavily on the amount of haste you have but it give you a good idea.

    TLDR; Single target, not much to seperate them
    2 LB/NT
    3 LB
    4 or more Frost bomb

    The big gain of Frost bomb on this fight over NT and LB is the even damage it does, both NT and LB target a random hostile target to deal additional damage to ... Frost bomb does equal damage to all making the first phase a bit more easier to control

  7. #7
    Brewmaster ridish's Avatar
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    I went with living bomb and FB spread because i use Light of the cosmos and have no replacement Also living bomb does more dmg for the single tager part of the fight.

  8. #8
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Can someone explain why Living Bomb would do more damage on this phase (single target) than the others 2 bombs ?

    Except for trinkets, I don't see why.
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  9. #9
    Nether Tempest does the most single target damage in theory. Then comes, Living Bomb, then comes Frost Bomb. But each bomb has differing proc rates for Brain Freeze. I've noticed that I get the most brain freeze procs from Living Bomb (especially when spread to 2 extra targets), which greatly increases my single target damage.

  10. #10
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromagik View Post
    Nether Tempest does the most single target damage in theory. Then comes, Living Bomb, then comes Frost Bomb. But each bomb has differing proc rates for Brain Freeze. I've noticed that I get the most brain freeze procs from Living Bomb (especially when spread to 2 extra targets), which greatly increases my single target damage.
    Please show me the numbers of your theory, because based on the numbers I have, frost bomb does ~30% more bomb dps than nether tempest (single target). Spreading LB doesen´t increase your chance to proc brain freeze

    Btw top parses don´t mean they are the best and skilled players. Gear (state of progression), luck, rng, raid dps, way of doing an encounter, playing 10 or 25m, your duties and many more factors come together for top parses. You should always be aware what you should and have to do, to optimize your dps and compare your own parses to improve yourself.
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2012-12-18 at 01:46 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromagik View Post
    I've noticed that I get the most brain freeze procs from Living Bomb (especially when spread to 2 extra targets), which greatly increases my single target damage.
    Just to clarify, since its been mentioned before and you still aren't getting it- BF only procs off of ticks of your most recently cast bomb. Doesn't matter if you have 3 LBs, or 12 NT's ticking away, its only going off the last 1 bomb you cast.

    9% chance per tick of NT, 25% chance per tick of LB. Multi dotting does NOT increase your chance of BF procs.

  12. #12
    NT vs LB vs FB will depend greatly on your haste levels, also beyond the straight 1:1 comparison you have to look at impact on your rotation.

    With high haste levels FB will win in a 1:1 compare for dps, however you are casting it much more often as well so you are losing dps elsewhere in your rotation.

    On "normal" fire haste levels single target they are all about the same depending on haste levels NT will nudge slightly ahead or FB, but for all intent and purpose they are equal. Still unsure why "the bomb of choice" for arcane is NT, think it will matter more on the fight and playstyle rather than spec

    Dont forget, while getting LB near enough perfect is viable.... Getting FB and NT perfect is near impossible.

  13. #13
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    As frost.. Nether tempest.

    Throw NT on everything, while using those free procs.. win all around.

    It will also help stay on the top during phase 2.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Please show me the numbers of your theory, because based on the numbers I have, frost bomb does ~30% more bomb dps than nether tempest (single target). Spreading LB doesen´t increase your chance to proc brain freeze

    Btw top parses don´t mean they are the best and skilled players. Gear (state of progression), luck, rng, raid dps, way of doing an encounter, playing 10 or 25m, your duties and many more factors come together for top parses. You should always be aware what you should and have to do, to optimize your dps and compare your own parses to improve yourself.
    Sorry, my assertions here are based on what I've read, and mere anecdotal evidence, but I'm aware of how misleading that can be in practice. Not really skilled at linking up-to-date number crunches or parses/logs. I've always read that you were supposed to use Frost Bomb for 6+ targets, Living Bomb for 3-5, and Nether Tempest for 1-2 targets.

    I completely agree with you about the top parse mages, and glad to hear you say that. My friend was arguing that because all those mages up there, that automatically makes them better theory-crafters and have superior understanding about the spec than I do...based merely on the fact that they're top parse mages and I never rank, and completing excluding the fact that their gear and guilds carry them to a large extent. If the top parse mage switched from Frost Bomb to Living Bomb, he'd likely still rank on the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    Just to clarify, since its been mentioned before and you still aren't getting it- BF only procs off of ticks of your most recently cast bomb. Doesn't matter if you have 3 LBs, or 12 NT's ticking away, its only going off the last 1 bomb you cast.

    9% chance per tick of NT, 25% chance per tick of LB. Multi dotting does NOT increase your chance of BF procs.
    Are you sure about this? Again, sorry for anecdotal speculation, but based on my experience, after I spread Living Bombs with Fire Blast, I sometimes get rapid-fire Frostfire Bolt procs that I have to quickly spam as not to waste any...which never happens when I have Living Bomb on just 1 target. I tend to get 0-2 procs on single target Living Bombs, but when I spread to 2 more targets, sometimes I see Living Bomb proccing twice within 1 tick (as if multiple bombs are proccing it). Is this possible, or am I just living in a Brain-Freeze fantasy-land?

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 01:34 PM ----------

    Dont forget, while getting LB near enough perfect is viable.... Getting FB and NT perfect is near impossible.
    Don't I know it! That night when the argument happened, I mistakenly made a half-joke when they asked why I wasn't using Frost Bomb. I told them "I'm not good at using Frost Bomb, but I'm better at using Living Bomb." I said this because I was trying to avoid spamming vent with mage theorycrafting which would have pissed off the raid group even more on a night that was already incredibly frustrating for everyone due to our dps being low all around (as Longrod Vonhugendong said). What I should have stated was your above quote, because my statement made them doubt my ability to play my class.
    Last edited by Pyromagik; 2012-12-18 at 06:38 PM.

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Brain freeze proc only on the last applied bomb since the beta and the proc chance have been confirmed. The fact that you have rapid proc in a row can easily be explain by RNG.

    For a detail about mage DPS, you can check my post on this forum, that I have posted a couple of hours ago.

    But, your are very true when you tell "I'm better at using Living Bomb". Personnaly, I'm very good with Frost Bomb and a lot less with Living Bomb. The 3 bombs have been tweaked so good, that the difference in term of DPS is principally due to game-play difference and string of bad/good luck in RNG.
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  16. #16
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromagik View Post
    As frost, I get more dps when I use Living Bomb as Frost spec because of the increased Brain Freeze procs from Living Bomb spread.
    Stopped here because that's just completely wrong.

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=44549 Read it more closely.

    "Your most recently applied Nether Tempest, Living Bomb, or Frost Bomb spell has a chance when it deals damage to grant you the Brain Freeze effect."

    So yeah, spreading LB won't give you any more BF than just using 1.

    Also, if you use anything BUT Frost Bomb as Frost, you're not playing optimally, ESPECIALLY on a fight that has 6 targets.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-19 at 05:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkhtar View Post
    Frostbomb is basically the best option for fights with 5 or more adds, in this case the first 2 thirds of phase 1. If you have problems with the enrage I would suggest switching to FB. I play with LB, since it is instant and the dmg in cleave situations is only smaller by a very small margin.

    During P2 LB is certainly the better option.

    All the stuff is irrelevant btw if you use LotC from Elegon... then you have to us use LB or NT.

    If you are able to down the boss, the choice of your bomb should not matter... the dmg differene is not that big. If you really have problems with your dps is is mist probably not because of your bomb.
    I disagree with pretty much everything you just said. On ST or AoE, I have a complete difference in DPS for my bombs (though I generally don't touch LB unless I'm Fire), with NT pulling way under FB unless I get extremely lucky with BF proccs (and by extremely lucky, I mean, like, the same level as getting 9 crit pyroblasts in a row for an Alter Time/PoM Combustion cycle)

    I will agree with you on the whole LotC from Elegon part though, as I'm currently using Mithril Wristwatch because the stupid Sha trinket didn't drop yet, and LotC is unusable with FB.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2012-12-19 at 10:14 PM.

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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Please show me the numbers of your theory, because based on the numbers I have, frost bomb does ~30% more bomb dps than nether tempest (single target). Spreading LB doesen´t increase your chance to proc brain freeze
    Is that including the reduced number of other spells due to having to recast FB more often than LB and NT?

  18. #18
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Is that including the reduced number of other spells due to having to recast FB more often than LB and NT?
    The more often, the better What do you think is better? 12 x 9% during 13,5s or 1x 100% during 11,5s ? I don´t see any disadvantages in casting it more often.

    No, the ~30% (28% with 0 haste) are just bomb dps.
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2012-12-20 at 02:57 AM.

  19. #19
    Why 12*9% in 13,5s? NT lasts 12 seconds and is instant, only FB has the recast-delay. On average, NT actually gives slightly more procs.

  20. #20
    I have the #10 parse for heroic 25 wind lord as frost (but am one of only two in the top 10 who was assigned to CC an add for the entire fight). In the top 10 there is a mix of all 3 bombs being used. All 3 bombs will, if executed perfectly, result in about the same average DPS over the fight. The only major difference is that you can't use LotC with frost bomb.

    Personally, I went with living bomb / fire blast glyph, as this resulted in the highest damage done to the boss or particular add being killed by pillaring off of it. NT multidotting is viable and will result in slightly higher boss damage with slightly lower add damage. Frost bomb is viable and likely works best if using the "chain kill all 3 add sets in a row to burn the boss from 70% to dead in 90 seconds" strat as it will result in even damage to all three add sets being tanked on top of the boss.

    For normal mode it doesn't really matter since.. lol normal mode. Heroic wind lord is quite easy and is barely more difficult than heroic blade lord.

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