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  1. #1

    Obliterate Waiting

    As 2H Frost DPS if I get a Killing Machine proc but Obliterate is on CD how many seconds is it worth waiting compared to just using it on a Frost Strike. If I have to wait anymore that 5 seconds for Obliterate to come off CD ive just been using it on Frost Strike. This ok?

  2. #2
    If you have to wait more than 1s it's likely not worth it

  3. #3
    No, you should not wait at all. Ignore Killing Machine procs entirely.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    No, you should not wait at all. Ignore Killing Machine procs entirely.
    Little data here on this theory? Or are we going to let this turn in to a flexing contest like you turned the Unholy thread into?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sflame View Post
    As 2H Frost DPS if I get a Killing Machine proc but Obliterate is on CD how many seconds is it worth waiting compared to just using it on a Frost Strike. If I have to wait anymore that 5 seconds for Obliterate to come off CD ive just been using it on Frost Strike. This ok?
    When killing machine proc's, don't wait no longer then 2 seconds for your obliterate, any longer then that is a DPS loss.

  6. #6
    Pit Lord IRunSoFarAway's Avatar
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    I don't wait longer than 1-2 seconds, if you wait 5s then you could potentially be losing killing machine procs.
    I'm mean because you're stupid.

  7. #7
    Immortal Treelife's Avatar
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    Get a swing timer addon, if you swing again after a KM you're probably (potentially) losing DPS. I'd assume you should always use a KM procc before your next swing.

  8. #8
    I'm not quite as hardcore as some I guess, I won't get a swing timer addon lol , but I do ok. I usually wait 1-3 seconds max depending on if I feel I "need" to use the KM proc.

  9. #9
    You're all wrong. You should not wait at all. You should not get a swing timer addon (which wouldn't work for DW frost anyway, and DW is ahead). You should ignore KM entirely. Sim results support this, but it is highly unintuitive so people find it extremely hard to believe.

    If you disagree, you need to support that opinion with something other than "common sense" or "my experience as a progression raider".
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-12-21 at 05:31 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    You're all wrong. You should not wait at all. You should not get a swing timer addon (which wouldn't work for DW frost anyway, and DW is ahead). You should ignore KM entirely. Sim results support this, but it is highly unintuitive so people find it extremely hard to believe.

    If you disagree, you need to support that opinion with something other than "common sense" or "my experience as a progression raider".
    What do you mean by "ignore KM" just do your Rotations regardless of when it procs and what gets used? Because I thought that would only be useful for DW since they generate a lot more KM's so you would end up getting KM-Oblits fairly often without trying anyway. Whereas with 2H it would be a bit harder.

  11. #11
    Yes, you completely ignore KM and go about your normal priority, prioritizing FS over obliterate like normal for DW or vice-versa for 2H. You end up spending a lot of KM procs on the "wrong" ability, but that doesn't actually hurt your performance by an appreciable amount.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Yes, you completely ignore KM and go about your normal priority, prioritizing FS over obliterate like normal for DW or vice-versa for 2H. You end up spending a lot of KM procs on the "wrong" ability, but that doesn't actually hurt your performance by an appreciable amount.
    FS does roughly half the amount of damage as OB in 2h frost spec, yet you say ignore KM procs???? You're trolling right? DW it's not as important because you will have more KM procs and OB does roughly 15% less then FS so it's not that bad, but 2H it's horrible if you spend it constantly on the wrong strike.

  13. #13
    Like I said, it's completely unintuitive. But it's true.

  14. #14
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    If you would play absolutely perfectly, with unmatched calculation speed and reaction times faster than 100ms on a connection without any kind of lag or similar, you could time your Obliterates lining up with probabilities and swing timer. But if you add technical difficulties (connection lag, processing time, keyboard choice, etc.) and human error (reaction times, wrong interpretation, looking for fire) the fault margin rises higher than the benefits if you compare an average situation. Processing all the different ifs and buts that are connected to the "perfect" decision making process make the rest of your game even worse. Not to mention that a wrong split second decision screws you over the other way round.

    There will always be some tries where your DpS is horrendous and there will be tries when your DpS is godlike dominating.
    But if you look at an average then the overall performance for "ignore KM procs" is better DpS than "wait for if but not if or if and if".

    Be warned that it may give you a "boring" feeling at first but on the other hand it greatly increases your awareness to what happens around you.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Where's Shiira??
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by IRunSoFarAway View Post
    I don't wait longer than 1-2 seconds, if you wait 5s then you could potentially be losing killing machine procs.
    That! And as a method to evaluate your dps on a boss I always check the OB/FS percentage ratio from Skada and compare it to what simcraft tells as "Damage Sources". If you can get spot on and near to that then you are pro and performing very well. Keep in mind that is on single target fight on AoE or movement you would HwB a bit more or AoE more.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    You're all wrong. You should not wait at all. You should not get a swing timer addon (which wouldn't work for DW frost anyway, and DW is ahead). You should ignore KM entirely. Sim results support this, but it is highly unintuitive so people find it extremely hard to believe.

    If you disagree, you need to support that opinion with something other than "common sense" or "my experience as a progression raider".
    Seems a troll ventured out from underneath his bridge.....Don't listen to schizoide, KM is a HUGE part of our damage. What you want to do for 2h frost is always prioritise obliterate when KM procs. The only time you would burn a KM proc on a frost strike is, if your obliterate CD is 3 seconds or longer or, if you have more then 76 runic power.

    A great addon that I use to track my CD's is ominiCC. If you wanted to take a look at my armory page, search metalup on mannoroth server. Hope this helped, good luck bud.

  18. #18
    The idea is that you could proc a second KM proc in the time it takes you to wait for Obliterate.

    If you wait more than 2nd, fire of a FS.

  19. #19
    There is no static time, its just your swing timer difference between the KM proc, and the next swing. If you have a proc up, and you go until your next swing, that was too long of a wait.

    But I agree with the 'dont wait' approach.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Metalup View Post
    Seems a troll ventured out from underneath his bridge.....Don't listen to schizoide, KM is a HUGE part of our damage. What you want to do for 2h frost is always prioritise obliterate when KM procs. The only time you would burn a KM proc on a frost strike is, if your obliterate CD is 3 seconds or longer or, if you have more then 76 runic power.
    KM is indeed a huge part of frost's damage, but it's not worth waiting to spend it on the "right" attack. If you disagree, support your argument with something other than "common sense" or "my experience as a progression raider". If you can't do that, then you are the troll.

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