Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
... LastLast
  1. #21
    Immortal Soisoisoi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,411
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    KM is indeed a huge part of frost's damage, but it's not worth waiting to spend it on the "right" attack. If you disagree, support your argument with something other than "common sense" or "my experience as a progression raider". If you can't do that, then you are the troll.
    Generally when you are talking about Obliterate and waiting for KM, you're talking about 2H Frost, the fact you brought it up like you did pretty much shows you didn't read the thread, or you don't know the difference. For your sake, I'll assume the former.

    Anyway, as I said above, you shouldn't be waiting too long as you'll be wasting future KM proccs or could waste Runes/RP.

  2. #22
    No. You should not wait at all, ever, for either 2H or DW frost. You may think you're gaining something by doing so, but that advantage is not visible anywhere but sims, where it's a 0.4% improvement, easily lost in server lag, reaction time, etc. Multiple sims support this; Euliat's sim said the same thing as Simcraft.

    I mean listen, is it the end of the world if you like waiting? No, you'll still do fine. The game is forgiving. But don't give advice to people unless you can support that advice with facts.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Metalup View Post
    Seems a troll ventured out from underneath his bridge.....Don't listen to schizoide, KM is a HUGE part of our damage. What you want to do for 2h frost is always prioritise obliterate when KM procs. The only time you would burn a KM proc on a frost strike is, if your obliterate CD is 3 seconds or longer or, if you have more then 76 runic power.

    A great addon that I use to track my CD's is ominiCC. If you wanted to take a look at my armory page, search metalup on mannoroth server. Hope this helped, good luck bud.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    KM is indeed a huge part of frost's damage, but it's not worth waiting to spend it on the "right" attack. If you disagree, support your argument with something other than "common sense" or "my experience as a progression raider". If you can't do that, then you are the troll.
    your thinking is only for DW-frost, which this thread is not about. the damage difference for 2-hand is too large to ignore, many fights also have damage modifiers so now it a huge dps loss if you waste a KM proc on FS if you could've waited a second to use it. you should use a swing timer, it nice to wait for 1/5 a sec before hitting OB just incase it procs, and let me tell you it does that a lot. i think metal knows what he's talking about by looking at his logs, and i have many parses as well a few in the top10 so, im sorry to tell you your dead wrong. no good dk will ever ignore km procs or not watch his swing, well some dont use swing timers but they all keep close eye on KM procs and wait within a reasonable time >2 seconds generally

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by damescool View Post
    the damage difference for 2-hand is too large to ignore
    This is wrong. I just ran a set of sims with simcraft 510-7 at 10k iterations. Error margin is 0.05%, so these are definitive results. Watching KM is a mere 0.4% improvement assuming perfect execution. In practice it's not a gain at all, and the annoyance isn't worth it.

    2H Frost T14H std profile: 117,793 DPS
    2H Frost T14H ignoring KM: 117,268 DPS

    Again, if your counterargument is "common sense" or "my experience as a progression raider", you automatically lose the argument.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-12-21 at 09:14 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    This is wrong. I just ran a set of sims with simcraft 510-7 at 10k iterations. Error margin is 0.05%, so these are definitive results. Watching KM is a mere 0.4% improvement assuming perfect execution. In practice it's not a gain at all, and the annoyance isn't worth it.

    2H Frost T14H std profile: 117,793 DPS
    2H Frost T14H ignoring KM: 117,268 DPS

    Again, if your counterargument is "common sense" or "my experience as a progression raider", you automatically lose the argument.
    Here's why I use a swing timer and wait occasionally for Obliterates after my swing.

    I do it, you don't.

    I do more DPS than you.

    Checkmate

  6. #26
    Shrug, do whatever you want. Just don't give other people incorrect advice.

  7. #27
    What's the disadvantage on waiting for the swing timer, you don't lose anything as long as you aren't capping another resource by waiting.

    I'm not sure if there is anyway to see the results of each iteration of the sim in simcraft but I'm betting the difference between the highest and lowest result is far higher when you do not wait as by not waiting you can have perfect RNG and do more dps or have really crap RNG and do crap dps. I'm guessing by waiting on the swing timer your dps will be more consistent even though lower than the perfect rng by not waiting.

  8. #28
    Simcraft isn't a single fight. Typically you do 10k iterations-- that's what I did. The RNG is removed from the equation. That's the whole reason why sims exist.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Simcraft isn't a single fight. Typically you do 10k iterations-- that's what I did. The RNG is removed from the equation. That's the whole reason why sims exist.
    You're blindly trusting sims without taking into account obvious facts. You literally lose nothing by waiting .5 seconds to Obliterate while waiting for a swing as long as you're not capping resources.

    I'd like to see what sim priority system you're using to differentiate between waiting and not waiting.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 04:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Shrug, do whatever you want. Just don't give other people incorrect advice.
    Also, I'm not giving anyone incorrect advice. You are.

  10. #30
    I provided evidence. You didn't.

    Shrug.

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Kuja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    City of Judgement
    Posts
    3,053
    My issue is that VERY often when I'm about to use Frost Strike, killng machine procs, making it go to waste. :/

    My gold making blog
    Your journey towards the gold cap!


  12. #32
    Sigh.

    67890

  13. #33
    well his evidence is him doing a lot of dps in real situations. I'd take that over sims all day.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I provided evidence. You didn't.

    Shrug.
    My evidence is that I do more DPS than if I would not waiting.

    Like I said, I'd like to see what priority system in Simcraft you use to "calculate" waiting vs. not waiting.

  15. #35
    Ahh, the "my experience as a progression raider" response.

  16. #36
    2h frost is a pita as is, if u wana get a swing timer and wait go for it, i dont see how that makes frost fun by any means. like others have said the difference is very small and you could just as much gain dps as you do lose dps by waiting

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Ahh, the "my experience as a progression raider" response.
    Why isn't this a valid response?

    Also, where are your Simcraft priority lists that prove waiting isn't worth it? If you continue to deflect you're furthering the argument against you.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 07:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpocrates View Post
    2h frost is a pita as is, if u wana get a swing timer and wait go for it, i dont see how that makes frost fun by any means. like others have said the difference is very small and you could just as much gain dps as you do lose dps by waiting
    You don't lose DPS by waiting if you're not capping resources.....

  18. #38
    You're asking me to prove a negative. That's very clever! But no, you need to prove your point, not ask me to disprove it.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    Why isn't this a valid response?

    Also, where are your Simcraft priority lists that prove waiting isn't worth it? If you continue to deflect you're furthering the argument against you.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 07:14 AM ----------



    You don't lose DPS by waiting if you're not capping resources.....
    As compelling as your anecdotal evidence is, and how much of an ass I think Schizoide is, you really need to provide more proof than "I say it's true so it is."
    It's could've and would've. Not could of and would of. Not sure when "of" started meaning "have," but everyone who thinks it does needs to go back to school.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Kio View Post
    As compelling as your anecdotal evidence is, and how much of an ass I think Schizoide is, you really need to provide more proof than "I say it's true so it is."
    Problem is until Schizoide actually provides proof and not just "I ran a sim trust me" scenario like he has then nobody else is required to in a discussion with him, if he's afraid to link his sims that say he's right then he's prolly wrong and knows it, once he links his sims so it can't be argued that he's inputting variables we all know aren't real then he can't complain and use the arguments he has been unless he's trolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Yeah, Europe certainly didn't play any sort of role in destroying the stability of Africa. The United States is literally the source of all evil. The United Satans, mirite?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •