Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
5
... LastLast
  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kio View Post
    As compelling as your anecdotal evidence is, and how much of an ass I think Schizoide is, you really need to provide more proof than "I say it's true so it is."
    Okay, let me spell this out.

    If you do not cap ANY resources, waiting for an auto attack and Obliterating on your auto attack has a higher chance to line up a KM proc with that Obliterate as opposed to not waiting.

    Here's the cost as opposed to not waiting.

    1. There is no cost. You don't cap any resources.

    Here are the benefits.

    1. By waiting for your auto attack to land, you have a chance of lining that Obliterate up with a Killing Machine proc.
    2. Therefore, the damage is increased by (KM proc chance - raid buffed crit chance)x(crit modifier)

    If you were gonna crit anyways, so what, nothing gained nothing lost. However, if KM does proc on that auto attack and you aren't capping any resources, you GAIN DPS.

    How can people not understand this? YOU DO NOT LOSE ANYTHING BY WAITING.

    P.S. I am not advocating you wait for Killing Machine procs. I am advocating you wait for your swing to land.

  2. #42
    you lose out on a chance for frost strike to proc . is there any proof of a player who waits that definitely gains more dps over those who attacks every gcd?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Harpocrates View Post
    you lose out on a chance for frost strike to proc . is there any proof of a player who waits that definitely gains more dps over those who attacks every gcd?
    wat

    10 chars

  4. #44
    runic empowerment

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Harpocrates View Post
    runic empowerment
    Except you don't miss out on a chance, because you wouldn't be Frost Striking with runes available.

    There is no issue with Frost Striking with runes available if you're waiting, but only if you can actually proc Runic Empowerment (will only be 1 rune MAX to proc, because the Runes have to be fully depleted)

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    Except you don't miss out on a chance, because you wouldn't be Frost Striking with runes available.

    There is no issue with Frost Striking with runes available if you're waiting, but only if you can actually proc Runic Empowerment (will only be 1 rune MAX to proc, because the Runes have to be fully depleted)
    Well actually, if i am sitting on 4 blood tap charges and have 5 runes unavailable (and not appearing for another 4 seconds say), 20 RP and a KM procs, im pretty sure its a dps loss to not frost strike, knowing that when i do, i have obliterate immediately ready, and i have chance for another KM proc on my next auto attack.

    If i wait for another swing to land, i have the possibility of overlapping KM procs, and losing the use of one of them.

    Your logic doesnt work for all scenarios.

    So basically, i would say, if you cant obliterate, then in most circumstances, it is better to frost strike when you have KM procs than wait ---->You get more runic resources back the more frost strikes you land, and you get more RP back the more runes you use.

    Thus, waiting is bad.
    Last edited by mmociloveu; 2012-12-22 at 11:05 AM.

  7. #47
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Dô yöû even liƒt¿
    Posts
    671
    Quote Originally Posted by mmociloveu View Post
    If i wait for another swing to land, i have the possibility of overlapping KM procs, and losing the use of one of them.
    You don't wait for another swing to land if you have KM up, you use KM on FS to avoid overlapping it.
    Death Knight -> Italiandk
    Shaman -> Cashrain
    Paladin -> Healyoutru
    Priest -> Ängel
    Monk -> Skadoosh
    Mage -> Icydeath

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    You don't wait for another swing to land if you have KM up, you use KM on FS to avoid overlapping it.
    Ok so basically, what Dossou is saying is if you have at least 1 rune of each on CD (meaning 3 runes on CD in total) and no KM proc, then it is best to wait for an autoattack to land in case that triggers KM for your next obliterate?

    If i have understood this correctly, then this is also not necessarily as simple as it sounds.

    What if i have 19 RP and i wait for my swing timer? I could use obliterate to get more RP, which activates my frost strike, which in turn increases my rune regen again.

    You would have to weigh up the resource regen dps gain, versus the swing timer wait dps increase (with no resource regen gain), which isn't exactly an easy thing to calculate.
    Last edited by mmociloveu; 2012-12-22 at 11:19 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by mmociloveu View Post
    Well actually, if i am sitting on 4 blood tap charges and have 5 runes unavailable (and not appearing for another 4 seconds say), 20 RP and a KM procs, im pretty sure its a dps loss to not frost strike, knowing that when i do, i have obliterate immediately ready, and i have chance for another KM proc on my next auto attack.

    If i wait for another swing to land, i have the possibility of overlapping KM procs, and losing the use of one of them.

    Your logic doesnt work for all scenarios.

    So basically, i would say, if you cant obliterate, then in most circumstances, it is better to frost strike when you have KM procs than wait ---->You get more runic resources back the more frost strikes you land, and you get more RP back the more runes you use.

    Thus, waiting is bad.
    A few points.

    1. We're talking about when you have 2 Runes available for Obliterate with No KM procced. That situation only, which does happen quite often.

    2. Runic Empowerment is used for end-game play. Blood Tap is a 40% Rune return, Runic Empowerment is an average of 45% return.

    3. There is no issue of waiting for Obliterate runes and losing a KM proc in this situation, so that point is moot.

    I agree with your post 100%, even if it's based off Blood Tap instead of Runic Empowerment.

    When you have less than a GCD before your next swing, 20 RP, and 5 unavailable runes, and KM procced, you should use that KM on a Frost Strike. Always.

    Waiting is only good when you have an Obliterate ready for your next swing.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 11:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mmociloveu View Post
    Ok so basically, what Dossou is saying is if you have at least 1 rune of each on CD (meaning 3 runes on CD in total) and no KM proc, then it is best to wait for an autoattack to land in case that triggers KM for your next obliterate?

    If i have understood this correctly, then this is also not necessarily as simple as it sounds.

    What if i have 19 RP and i wait for my swing timer? I could use obliterate to get more RP, which activates my frost strike, which in turn increases my rune regen again.

    You would have to weigh up the resource regen dps gain, versus the swing timer wait dps increase (with no resource regen gain), which isn't exactly an easy thing to calculate.
    Think about it like an energy class in this situation.

    As long as you're not capping resources during the waiting period, you're not losing any DPS.

    Frost 2H isn't GCD capped until much higher levels of haste (think 20k+)

    I think I had 80% haste in DS, currently sitting around 60%.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    Think about it like an energy class in this situation.

    As long as you're not capping resources during the waiting period, you're not losing any DPS.

    Frost 2H isn't GCD capped until much higher levels of haste (think 20k+)

    I think I had 80% haste in DS, currently sitting around 60%.
    One thing, for me, lingers though. The resource-gain you lose by waiting for your autoattack, given your "wait for autoattack to land" scenario.



    Lets say i have 2 runes available, the rest are regenerating and i have 16 RP (frost 2h), and KM has not procced.

    Swing timer has 3.5 seconds left. In those 3.5 seconds i can use an obliterate and gain enough RP to use 2 x frost strikes.

    1 x obliterate + 2 x frost strikes (with RE proc chance) surely is more dps than waiting for 1 x obliterate crit?

  11. #51
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Eschborn
    Posts
    5,293
    Like mentioned before, the biggest cost about "waiting for OB" is attention and possible DpS loss if you screw up.

    Perfect world for "OB waiting" would be:
    1. press FS 0.1s before white swing to make use of KM
    2. keypress goes through and KM FS happens
    3. next white hit procs KM
    4. KM gets used for OB
    Result: DpS win

    Worst case for waiting would be:
    1. waiting for the next white hit you press FS 0.1s too late
    2. next white hit refreshes KM
    3. your FS key press goes through
    4. no KM proc for OB

    The second situation doesn't exist for "not waiting" but there's other situations that can rustle your jimmies if you go for the "not waiting" approach, e.g. when you wasted KM on FS even though your OB would be ready 0.2s before your next white swing.

    The possibilities of these occurrences vary by your haste, buffs, swing timer, etc.

    From my experiences, your priorities for DpSing should be:
    1. Learn to manage runes and RP
    2. Learn to incorporate your CDs into DpSing
    3. Learn to use and abuse encounter mechanics for DpSing
    4. Learn to manage runes and RP by heart
    5. Learn to perfect your playstyle

    And the "waiting for OB" thing falls into the 5th category for me. 1st and 2nd are basics you should have down before you start raiding, 3rd comes from either guides or experience, 4th comes intuitively or over time after lots of practice and when you can blindly play your DK is the time you should start worrying about how to increase the last 0.5% of your average DpS.


    So the best advise for a fresh DK is: Don't wait, it's too much of a hassle for too few of a reward.

    And I don't really think that a veteran DK needs to ask the question as they should be able to figure out the answer themselves or adapt the waiting part when they see fit anyway...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mummbles View Post
    Being born in this day in age just seems like a giant teaser.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nye View Post
    And I don't really think that a veteran DK needs to ask the question as they should be able to figure out the answer themselves or adapt the waiting part when they see fit anyway...
    Dont agree with this.

    I am more than veteran at DK, and i know for sure that when you are calculating stuff, no matter how simple something looks, there is every possibility that a specific situation has been overlooked or ignored that can totally screw with the mathematical results.

    We do not yet have a 100% accurate dps sim (and never likely to get one), which proves the point.

  13. #53
    at the end of it all, doesnt this all seem just a bit tedious to you guys? we gota talent how we get our resources, we gota use horn on cd for a tiny boost of RP , now we're talking watching swing timers and waiting to hit an attack to get stars to align. Maybe it's just me but I'd rather blizz take a look at our situation and tweak it a bit. Given I play mostly tank DK and occasionally frost dps

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Harpocrates View Post
    at the end of it all, doesnt this all seem just a bit tedious to you guys? we gota talent how we get our resources, we gota use horn on cd for a tiny boost of RP , now we're talking watching swing timers and waiting to hit an attack to get stars to align. Maybe it's just me but I'd rather blizz take a look at our situation and tweak it a bit. Given I play mostly tank DK and occasionally frost dps
    Is that sarcasm or do you actually thing using Horn of Winter for RP is hard?

  15. #55
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Eschborn
    Posts
    5,293
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    Is that sarcasm or do you actually thing using Horn of Winter for RP is hard?
    I think he's complaining that it is butt easy and therefore we are arguing about how an average sub-1% increase of DpS is worth putting our attention too. (though he worded it a lot nicer than saying "well, it kinda is faceroll, isn't it?")
    Quote Originally Posted by Mummbles View Post
    Being born in this day in age just seems like a giant teaser.

  16. #56
    no its a rather stupid ability to have to press every 20 seconds. all im saying is we should have better , less clunkier rotations

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Nye View Post
    I think he's complaining that it is butt easy and therefore we are arguing about how an average sub-1% increase of DpS is worth putting our attention too. (though he worded it a lot nicer than saying "well, it kinda is faceroll, isn't it?")
    Trust me, watching swing timers does not make or break you as a DK. I watch swing timers on farm bosses. Not progression kills where while DPS does matter, staying alive matters much more.

    The other DK in my guild doesn't even use a swing timer and does just as much DPS as me.

    There are alot more things that separate the best from the rest than a swing timer.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 12:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpocrates View Post
    no its a rather stupid ability to have to press every 20 seconds. all im saying is we should have better , less clunkier rotations
    Frost isn't clunky at all. I just found your toon and your gear is awful. At around 8k haste Frost starts to become much smoother.

    A swing timer of 2.1-2.15 would be optimal, I'm currently at 2.26. Maybe next tier.
    Last edited by Dossou; 2012-12-22 at 12:08 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    Is that sarcasm or do you actually thing using Horn of Winter for RP is hard?
    Dossou, any thoughts on the previous post i made about the resource gain scenario where 1 x obliterate + 2 x frost strike (plus RE proc chance) being more dps than waitin for 1 x obliterate crit (with no resource gain)?

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post

    Frost isn't clunky at all. I just found your toon and your gear is awful. At around 8k haste Frost starts to become much smoother.

    A swing timer of 2.1-2.15 would be optimal, I'm currently at 2.26. Maybe next tier.
    what toon are you looking at cause neither my forum name nor sig is my dk lol

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Harpocrates View Post
    what toon are you looking at cause neither my forum name nor sig is my dk lol
    Oh, I looked at Avari on Emerald Dream EU

    only DK with that name

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 12:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mmociloveu View Post
    Dossou, any thoughts on the previous post i made about the resource gain scenario where 1 x obliterate + 2 x frost strike (plus RE proc chance) being more dps than waitin for 1 x obliterate crit (with no resource gain)?
    I never wait for Obliterate runes when I have KM procced.

    Ever. (Unless it's less than my reaction time)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •