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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Magdalena View Post
    What you believe is irrelevant.

    I'm basing my logic off Euliat's math here- math that has done exactly what you're asking for.
    Link please. I would very much like to see the maths for this.

  2. #102
    The Patient Magdalena's Avatar
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    Here is Euliat's Frost spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...XsL2K5ExM/edit

    Here's a post explaining some of the functionality: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...01256?page=4#6

    Message him on MMO if you want more, he's quite active on these forums.
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Magdalena View Post
    Here is Euliat's Frost spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...XsL2K5ExM/edit

    Here's a post explaining some of the functionality: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...01256?page=4#6

    Message him on MMO if you want more, he's quite active on these forums.
    Thank you, i will spend some hours on this over the xmas period

    (and probably find something incorrect, because i am annoying like that ^^)

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 02:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Magdalena View Post
    Here is Euliat's Frost spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...XsL2K5ExM/edit

    Here's a post explaining some of the functionality: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...01256?page=4#6

    Message him on MMO if you want more, he's quite active on these forums.

    Well ive studied his code for about an hour or so.

    I dont see any comparisons between stalling for a potential km proc and not stalling which will regen resources faster. And without running the sim to see how it handles rp regen, we arent going to know.

    The basic premise is the faster you use runes, the more rp you generate, which in turn regens runes faster, which in turn regens rp faster, etc etc etc

    Does generating resources slower amount to more dps because of a potential km proc?

    Without the maths to verify one or the other, all arguments are invalid and nothing more than guesses.
    Last edited by mmociloveu; 2012-12-24 at 02:11 PM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by mmociloveu View Post
    Dossou, any thoughts on the previous post i made about the resource gain scenario where 1 x obliterate + 2 x frost strike (plus RE proc chance) being more dps than waitin for 1 x obliterate crit (with no resource gain)?
    The resource gain will happen if you wait for the swing or not, forcing it to happen earlier will cause downtime in your rotation later on, you may aswell have the downtime early waiting for a swing.

    We currently have plenty of room in our rotation to game KM procs off swings with no downside, Dossou is 100% correct in saying it is a dps gain, even if it is only 0.5%.

  5. #105
    I agree with everything but your conclusion. Nobody should get a swing timer, because the best case benefit is ridiculously small and it's not worth splitting your attention for a tiny thereotical performance boost dwarfed by the RNG. People trying to time their KM-buffed attacks are doing themselves a disservice.

  6. #106
    I don't use a swing timer personally, if I were staying 2H for much longer I would use one, as I'm sure reacting to swings would become second nature, but I will be going d/w when the rng gods give up their 1h purples! On a patchwerk style fight I can see the benefits of using one, when there's little else but your rotation to focus on, and for people who like to min-max why not squeeze that little extra?

  7. #107
    Because there are no patchwerk fights, and trying to squeeze that little extra (and it is a little extra) means you are likely to make a mistake elsewhere. But you're the best judge of your own skill; if you really feel you can execute that perfectly, go for it. I know I can't.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunnys View Post
    The resource gain will happen if you wait for the swing or not, forcing it to happen earlier will cause downtime in your rotation later on, you may aswell have the downtime early waiting for a swing.

    We currently have plenty of room in our rotation to game KM procs off swings with no downside, Dossou is 100% correct in saying it is a dps gain, even if it is only 0.5%.

    If you have a swing timer of 2.5 seconds, and you are waiting the last 0.5 seconds for a potential km proc, you might have 2 x obliterates ready in the next swing timer and a freezing fog proc, meaning you cant dump these abilities, dump RP AND wait for the next swing timer for a potential KM proc.

    There are so many situations where waiting is a dps loss, and i really dont believe any human on the planet can play it to perfection, every 2.5 seconds, for minutes let alone hours on end.

    You're far more likley to screw something up and cause dps loss than gain in all reality. All this and not even considering isp and server lag.

    You are far better off doing it like i do, which is to track how many seconds left on your next obliterate, and if KM has procced with obliterate being ready in the next 1-2 seconds, wait for that and completely disregard the swing timer.

    So much easier to track, and so much more chance to reach maximum dps potential.

    It truly is not worth the effort for so little gain.

    Not at all.

    When i was hardcore i used to rank top 20 dps for dk, and right now i am casual only have ilevel 492 WITHOUT 4 piece tier set and i have killed 2/4 rank 8 bosses in brawlers club and have top 50 ranks in some 25 normal/heroic fights. No easy feat with such low gear.

    Without being elitist, i know my playstyle is in the top 0.1% of wow players and not once have i ever tracked my swing timer.
    Last edited by mmociloveu; 2012-12-24 at 09:30 PM.

  9. #109
    Well it definitely isn't for me. I know there are better players out there. Maybe some of them can execute it properly and see that 0.4% gain. It's certainly possible, it's just a lot of annoyance for a chance at a very small gain. But that doesn't mean it's good advice for the general public-- exactly the opposite.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Sorry, I linked the sims several times, but that may have been in other threads here. I assumed you saw them too. They were all in the past week. Anyway, you're correct that prioritizing KM is a DPS increase, but it's a very small one (0.4%), and like others have said, that's only with perfect execution. You say you can do that and still not stand in the fire on bosses? That's cool. You're clearly a much better player than I am. I know that realistically I can't, and certainly most players can't, and that's why it's not good advice to give out.
    Not to wade in here but in the face of solid proof you are wrong (when you gave little you were right) your argument has now changed to "well, it's only 0.4% and it's hard". When you've made a point of your "you can't use experience or anecdotes as evidence" and been quite petty about it, it's rather hypocritical to now use a mixture of both as to why you are still right.

    A post along the lines of "ok, point conceded on the concrete reasons for waiting/ignoring KM, let's agree though that spending effort to make the stars align for 0.4% is likely going to hurt your performance by more than 0.4% in other areas" or something similar, would be much "wiser".

    The reply at the moment is more like a petulant child being stubborn about being wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 09:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I agree with everything but your conclusion. Nobody should get a swing timer, because the best case benefit is ridiculously small and it's not worth splitting your attention for a tiny thereotical performance boost dwarfed by the RNG. People trying to time their KM-buffed attacks are doing themselves a disservice.
    Just to make the point again. So against solid proof your point was wrong you use "raiding experience" to validate your own after all those smug posts telling people they couldn't use that to back up their claims.
    Last edited by mercutiouk; 2012-12-24 at 09:44 PM.
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  11. #111
    No, I just didn't go into great detail. I shouldn't need to get into the nitty-gritty explaining the exact numbers and reasoning in every single post on random forums.

    Someone said "should I wait on obliterate" and I said "no". That was the correct answer.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    No, I just didn't go into great detail. I shouldn't need to get into the nitty-gritty explaining the exact numbers and reasoning in every single post on random forums.

    Someone said "should I wait on obliterate" and I said "no". That was the correct answer.
    I never said you should be waiting every swing. That's idiotic. Waiting on certain swings in certain situations is a DPS increase. I'm assuming the .4% gain you continuously mention without providing the Simcraft priority profiles you used to magically find .4% is waiting every melee swing.

    Please, on your next post, include exactly what Simcraft priority list you used to differentiate between waiting and not waiting.
    You keep deflecting away from the fact you have "evidence" when clearly you haven't posted it yet.

  13. #113
    The standard simcraft T14H profile is 0.4% over the same profile with the KM actionlists commented out.

    Again, I posted this in other threads. Someone else (I thought it was you) also posted their results, and I agreed with them.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by mmociloveu View Post
    If you have a swing timer of 2.5 seconds, and you are waiting the last 0.5 seconds for a potential km proc, you might have 2 x obliterates ready in the next swing timer and a freezing fog proc, meaning you cant dump these abilities, dump RP AND wait for the next swing timer for a potential KM proc.

    There are so many situations where waiting is a dps loss, and i really dont believe any human on the planet can play it to perfection, every 2.5 seconds, for minutes let alone hours on end.

    You're far more likley to screw something up and cause dps loss than gain in all reality. All this and not even considering isp and server lag.

    You are far better off doing it like i do, which is to track how many seconds left on your next obliterate, and if KM has procced with obliterate being ready in the next 1-2 seconds, wait for that and completely disregard the swing timer.

    So much easier to track, and so much more chance to reach maximum dps potential.

    It truly is not worth the effort for so little gain.

    Not at all.

    When i was hardcore i used to rank top 20 dps for dk, and right now i am casual only have ilevel 492 WITHOUT 4 piece tier set and i have killed 2/4 rank 8 bosses in brawlers club and have top 50 ranks in some 25 normal/heroic fights. No easy feat with such low gear.

    Without being elitist, i know my playstyle is in the top 0.1% of wow players and not once have i ever tracked my swing timer.
    If you were to have two OBs queued you would be waiting too long. If you are following the normal frost prio and your next OB won't cap RP you will lose nothing by waiting, you should also be using up rime procs before OB regardless.

    Aslong as you are keeping your runes recharging and not capping RP there is no resource loss, you will not run out of GCDs with current levels of haste, and you will not magic resources out of thin air by using all your abilities ASAP.

    I cannot understand how some people fail to see this... You can run sims all you like, some things just come down to common sense, a bit like the Str/haste gem debate.

    As for gear and rankings; I am similarly geared to you and also rank top 50 regularly, I was using a blue weapon and no tier until recently, I do not see what relevance this has?

    My play style is similar to yours- waiting with KM procced 1-2s until the next OB, but if I wanted to improve my dps I would use a swing timer in the fashion Dossou mentioned.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by mmociloveu View Post
    I dont see any comparisons between stalling for a potential km proc and not stalling which will regen resources faster. And without running the sim to see how it handles rp regen, we arent going to know.
    They aren't in the code that is linked. This is explained in post #64, not post #6 as accidentally pasted in the link you followed:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1256?page=4#64

    Quote Originally Posted by mmociloveu View Post
    The basic premise is the faster you use runes, the more rp you generate, which in turn regens runes faster, which in turn regens rp faster, etc etc etc
    This effect only goes but so far. Some delaying does not result in a loss depending on rune states.

    Mathematically, the hard "limit" on resource generation is shown in this workbook for 2H Frost (PL is not perfect):
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...no3cFVNRngyUnc

    If sims did not waste any time or resources at all (via GCDs primarily), that's the throughput you would be looking at. Since you are not GCD-locked yet, the result from that spreadsheet should line up pretty dead close to sims given the same inputs. Also, as you can see, since you are not GCD-locked, you do have some free time to adjust abilities around, but the amount you have is very limited before you start causing loss. As you stall more, you cram more of your abilities into a smaller window of time. After a certain amount, stalling will inevitably lead to pushing abilities out of that window; this, then, is that loss. The previously linked post goes into more detail about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    The standard simcraft T14H profile is 0.4% over the same profile with the KM actionlists commented out.
    This is not representative of the gain/loss of stalling. Stalling is much more deliberate and intricate than tagging 2 lines with a KM condition.

    -------------------

    I had already done the analysis on whether or not to stall during Beta, as I have extreme control over the ability priority in my sim, and it was the only DK sim at the time; the conclusion was that you basically should not. Stalling did increase DPS via more KM-OB's, but it also decreased DPS via lost actions. The latter effect was prominent enough such that waiting more than 0.50s (up to, not blindly) resulted in an overall loss. Unfortunately, those forums are gone along with that data, and I didn't plan to be around later to need it anyway.

    Since this issue has resurfaced here, on the official forums, and on EJ all rather recently, I'm going to revisit it and generate that data again. I will be using a slightly different priority than the first time I looked at this issue, however, it should be more comprehensive. I will also be testing a priority that has been floating around on the boards as "superior" despite tangible proof.

    It will take time to rewrite the priority (those of you who have looked at the control I have will understand), and it will take even more time to gather all the necessary simulation data before presentation. That's not even considering holiday distractions.

    In the meantime, have patience, and quit this bickering. I will try to have simulations running by Thursday, which means you won't see anything probably until Saturday or Sunday.
    Last edited by SSHA778; 2012-12-25 at 01:55 AM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    KM is indeed a huge part of frost's damage, but it's not worth waiting to spend it on the "right" attack. If you disagree, support your argument with something other than "common sense" or "my experience as a progression raider". If you can't do that, then you are the troll.
    KM Obliterate + non KM Frost strike = more damage then KM Frost strike + Non KM Obliterate.
    Works for 2h, dw not so much.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Xabris View Post
    KM Obliterate + non KM Frost strike = more damage then KM Frost strike + Non KM Obliterate.
    Works for 2h, dw not so much.
    That's a huge oversimplification, to such an extent that it actually leads to an incorrect conclusion. Please read Euliat's post immediately preceding yours.

    @Euliat: Thanks for rejoining the conversation!

  18. #118
    The Patient Magdalena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    They aren't in the code that is linked. This is explained in post #64, not post #6 as accidentally pasted in the link you followed:
    I blame lack of sleep =(
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