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  1. #81
    I can't really see the issue here:
    If you're sitting at 4 runes down, OB ready and <20 RP why not risk a quick glance at the swing timer?
    If you're sitting at 6 runes down, half a second till OB is ready, 20-40 RP, KM why not risk a quick glance at the swing timer?

    Sure you don't do that with fires spawning under you but there are plenty of situations where you just sit under the boss with nothing to do but watching your bars.
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  2. #82
    You could, but the theoretical gain is so small that the slight chance that you might miss something else means you're probably better off just not bothering. It's a lot of annoyance for an infinitesimal gain that you probably won't realize in the first place. But if you really want to do it, go for it. Realistically I know that I can't, and most players can't, so it's not good advice for the general public.

  3. #83
    your math is greatly flawed, what we are saying is if you want to maximize your dps. 1. get a swing timer 2. watch your timer and wait a second to hit ob if your not capping resources. nowhere did dossou say wait a few seconds to ob, in fact he said dont wait, but dont hit it if your about .5seconds from an autoswing, then hit it immediately.

    i'm very curious as to why this doesn't make sence to you guys. i'd listen to a guy who has 18 top10 parses over any sim you use, sims are great for theorycrafting, but then you have to adapt in real world raiding, and it's a lot more than .4% who came up with that garbage. many fights have damage modifiers, and if you waste a good km proc on fs over ob during those times if can be 10s of thousands of dps lost IE: heroic wind lord, and lei'shi, my ob crits do over 2million on wind lord, and 500k-1mil on lei'shi with stacks. thats a huge waste if not maximizing your ob crits. imagine loosing over 1million damage because you didnt wait 1 sec for your auto swing, and it procs and now you only have fs to use.
    Last edited by damescool; 2012-12-22 at 07:19 PM.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by damescool View Post
    your math is greatly flawed, what we are saying is if you want to maximize your dps. 1. get a swing timer 2. watch your timer and wait a second to hit ob if your not capping resources. nowhere did dossou say wait a few seconds to ob, in fact he said dont wait, but dont hit it if your about .5seconds from an autoswing, then hit it immediately.

    i'm very curious as to why this doesn't make sence to you guys.
    It makes perfect sense.

    But i raised an issue, that by doing this you are regenerating your resources slower, which in itself causes a dps loss compared to someone who doesnt wait.

    0.5 - 1 seconds waiting every 2.5 seconds could potentially be 1/5th resource regen less than somebody who waits.


    Im not saying this is correct maths, im just saying it has not yet been considered, and someone needs to work out the maths to see how it affects things.

    ie - compare the resource regen loss vs a potential km proc
    Last edited by mmociloveu; 2012-12-22 at 08:19 PM.

  5. #85
    i understand what you're saying, it makes sence. however, you're not waiting on your swings all the time. so its not as much lost potential as you might think.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by damescool View Post
    i understand what you're saying, it makes sence. however, you're not waiting on your swings all the time. so its not as much lost potential as you might think.
    The gain isnt much either.

    Saying that, i do actually do this, but in a different way because of how i set up my weakauras.

    I basically do not use the rune system, instead, for obliterate, i actually have a graphical display for the obliterate ability and a timer as to when it is next ready to use.

    If i get a KM proc, and i can see that i have 1-2 seconds before my obliterate is ready, i do actually wait, although this isnt really based on the swing timer.

    Ive got a few world rankings atm on my dk, some top 50, which really isnt bad, considering i dont have 4 piece tier set, and im sitting on only 493 gear level.

    So i know my style definately does well

  7. #87
    I'm not even one of the top 100 geared DKs in the US and I have 18 Top 10s. I also haven't done 25 H MSV in over a month. I didn't even log on for our first week of repeats.

    Like Damescool said, you are not waiting for every swing. I only wait when my next global will be an Obliterate landing a fraction of a second too early. I don't wait every melee swing, that's retarded, especially not during lust/cooldowns.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    I'm not even one of the top 100 geared DKs in the US and I have 18 Top 10s. I also haven't done 25 H MSV in over a month. I didn't even log on for our first week of repeats.

    Like Damescool said, you are not waiting for every swing. I only wait when my next global will be an Obliterate landing a fraction of a second too early. I don't wait every melee swing, that's retarded, especially not during lust/cooldowns.
    Your a whole 10 ilevel higher than me and have 4 piece bonus, which is huge. I doubt im in the top 10,000 gear ranked dks atm lol.

    Im super casual now, ive ranked top 20 dps spots in wotlk before on my dk. To get top 50 dps rank now on some fights without 4 piece bonus and only 493 ilevel isnt too bad in my humble opinion.

    We both know what we are doing anyway, i would just like for some maths genius to weigh up the regen gain / loss in this situation, just for peace of mind.

  9. #89
    I assume you raid 10 mans.

    I got Slight of Hand on 10 H and got rank 8. Our rogue got slight of hand and got Rank 1.

    If you think parsing in 10 man is special, it really isn't. But let's not talk about that.

  10. #90
    I applaud you for knowing your class and spec, however I don't care how good you are... you should not be saying that parsing in 10 isn't anything special imo. Imho 10 man as far as content is much more difficult and personally demanding than 25. Think about it if you loose one person on a 10 it could quite possibly be a wipe during progression. Whereas if you loose as much as 5 ppl on a 25 you could quite possibly down the boss easily during progression depending on their roles of course (if they are tanks and healers obviously not but a mix of a few dps and one heals could do it) Tens rely more on the player than the grp, now dont get me wrong it still takes the grp being coordinated to get the job done, but you can't hide in a 10 man if you are failing at all.. you can in a 25 easily.

    Again I do applaud you on your rankings and parses and you obviously are a very good player, I just dissagree about the whole 10 man thing. I personally would feel absolutely on top of the world if I placed in the top 100 dk's since I'm in a 10 man.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangrule View Post
    I applaud you for knowing your class and spec, however I don't care how good you are... you should not be saying that parsing in 10 isn't anything special imo. Imho 10 man as far as content is much more difficult and personally demanding than 25. Think about it if you loose one person on a 10 it could quite possibly be a wipe during progression. Whereas if you loose as much as 5 ppl on a 25 you could quite possibly down the boss easily during progression depending on their roles of course (if they are tanks and healers obviously not but a mix of a few dps and one heals could do it) Tens rely more on the player than the grp, now dont get me wrong it still takes the grp being coordinated to get the job done, but you can't hide in a 10 man if you are failing at all.. you can in a 25 easily.

    Again I do applaud you on your rankings and parses and you obviously are a very good player, I just dissagree about the whole 10 man thing. I personally would feel absolutely on top of the world if I placed in the top 100 dk's since I'm in a 10 man.
    lol?

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  12. #92
    WOW>.. Yeah I feel like a complete noob man sorry bout that. Yeah my palm is literally covering my face right now!

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    I assume you raid 10 mans.

    I got Slight of Hand on 10 H and got rank 8. Our rogue got slight of hand and got Rank 1.

    If you think parsing in 10 man is special, it really isn't. But let's not talk about that.
    Ive only ever raided 25/40 mans as the path to progression.

    Whenever i have done 10 man (due to people not showing up for 25's or for example ToC on where it was mandatory for max progression due to seperate lockouts), ive always found them faceroll compared to 25's (the odd fight being exception).

    I do subscribe to the fact though that when you do 25's and take the best 10 players, it will always seem easier, even though it might not be.

    But ye, 25's for me.

  14. #94
    I have no experience in designing addons, but it seems it would be somewhat simple to design something that takes into account your swing timer and rune cooldowns and tells you on the fly wether you will have your runes ready to OB before your next swing or not when you have the KM buff. Then it could show an OB icon in case you'll have it ready before te next swing or a FS icon otherwise.
    I guess that wouldn't be too hard to pull off and would provide more consistent results than ignoring KM.

  15. #95
    Oh look, the "I'm better than you because I raid 25man" BS again. Whats next, the "PVE is easy, but PVP takes skill", or "unholy takes skill, frost is faceroll" nonsense?

    If these not-so-subtle attempts to denigrate others really make you feel better about yourself, then I pity you.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    Oh look, the "I'm better than you because I raid 25man" BS again. Whats next, the "PVE is easy, but PVP takes skill", or "unholy takes skill, frost is faceroll" nonsense?

    If these not-so-subtle attempts to denigrate others really make you feel better about yourself, then I pity you.
    Quick question, I'm guessing you're mad?
    inb4 infracted again

    Infracted
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2012-12-24 at 10:45 PM.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    Oh look, the "I'm better than you because I raid 25man" BS again. Whats next, the "PVE is easy, but PVP takes skill", or "unholy takes skill, frost is faceroll" nonsense?

    If these not-so-subtle attempts to denigrate others really make you feel better about yourself, then I pity you.
    Well the logistics of 25 man groups ARE harder to organise than 10 mans. Everyone knew it, and now nobody can argue against this since Blizzard has officially stated it too.

    When you raid 25's and gear up 25 people and take the best 10 of those people, then 10 mans are ALOT easier than 25's.

    If you pitch one 25's group vs one 10's group though and look at the difficulty of raid progression like this, then apart from the higher level of difficulty of 25 logistics, the theoretical difficulty of the fights are probably about the same.

    People should acknowledge and give credit that maintining and organising a consistant 25 man raid is harder than 10's.

    Credit where credit is due.

    Anyway, thread derailed, plenty of other places to talk bout this.

  18. #98
    The Patient Magdalena's Avatar
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    Epeen flexing aside, there's something people aren't getting here: Euliat was originally the individual who came up with the math that proved waiting for Killing Machine was usually not worth it unless it fulfilled the criteria Dossou has mentioned. The two do not contradict one another.

    Here's what they are:

    1. When you are about to Obliterate, and can wait without capping any resources (both Runes and Runic Power), then there is no downside to doing so.

    2. When KM procs and you don't have the runes to Obliterate yet, you know that you won't get another KM proc (and potentially overwrite the first) for [swingspeed]sec, which typically means you can wait one other GCD in between with no loss.

    Please do not interpret this as doing something utterly silly like waiting 6+ seconds for an Obliterate rune pair while a KM proc is up. Both are very tight circumstances (especially if you're intelligent with AMS soaking for 1.) and are usually compensated for by human error, lag or movement.

    Tl;dr, it's not worth waiting in the majority of cases players are probably considering.

    Edit: Yes, this means a swingspeed bar is probably a good idea for min-maxxing 2h Frost. Go get one.
    Last edited by Magdalena; 2012-12-24 at 10:10 AM.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Magdalena View Post
    1. When you are about to Obliterate, and can wait without capping any resources (both Runes and Runic Power), then there is no downside to doing so.
    I disgree that there is no downside.

    I believe that resource regen is slower (and therefore less) than somebody who never waits.

    I believe somebody needs to calculate the potential KM proc dps increase vs the resource regen lost for waiting in order to make an accurate statement.

  20. #100
    The Patient Magdalena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmociloveu View Post
    I disgree that there is no downside.

    I believe that resource regen is less than somebody who never waits.

    I believe somebody needs to calculate the potential KM proc dps increase vs the resource regen lost for waiting in order to make an accurate statement.
    What you believe is irrelevant.

    I'm basing my logic off Euliat's math here- math that has done exactly what you're asking for. If you have any counter evidence to provide, please do so.

    You're also ignoring what I said about how rare these situations are- they only become more rare as 2h Frost DK advances in gear and attains more Haste.
    Lets take an alternative approach to this: Movement, i.e. downtime on a boss/mob is a resource. Start factoring in movement to rune regen in a fight and it quickly becomes clear that my earlier assertion stands: In the majority of cases, waiting is not a DPS gain.
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