Page 37 of 47 FirstFirst ...
27
35
36
37
38
39
... LastLast
  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by Dillon View Post
    Well before continuing, I suppose rather than focusing immediately on debate I should probably state in a concise manner what I'm about (I don't like talking about me, but I think it might give perspective into my arguments).

    Generally, I try to, especially on subjects of intense debate (if I haven't personally nailed something down I'm 100% certain about), err on the side of more freedom as apposed to less, simply because I would rather own up to the consequences of abuse of rights rather than answer to someone who asks me why I won't let him do something. Things like abortion, gun ownership, burning flags, offending people, etc., I prefer the consequences, rather than justifying why someone can't, because I don't feel like I have a good enough reason. Rather than why allow it, I much prefer why not, and I often find it much more satisfying to live and let live with my fellow creatures.

    Semi-automatics in long-gun form, I could understand further regulation in the form of comprehensive background checks, criminal history, maybe a psych-eval, magazine size limits (I seriously question the effectiveness of this). Things like you said, have better controls on who can get their hands on these, I might be okay with.

    On lethality, I probably worded that poorly. I mean, bullets don't hit harder out of an M-16 vs AR-15, because if you're doing precision targeting, control is more important than a bullet hose. That's why three-round burst/semi-auto is much preferred over their auto/semi counterparts. The point is, where the bullet goes is more important than the gun it comes out of (subjective because barrel length affects velocity blah blah blah).

    I won't pretend than a rifle isn't potentially more lethan than a pistol, because that's obviously why armies carry them instead of having four glocks all the time. On the issue of the school shooting and ownership in general, my concern is much more who gets these weapons and what their mental health status is.
    I fully admit to you that my thinking in terms of freedoms is similar to yours. Live and let live.

    Unfortunately, and I think you can admit it, our gun violence has gotten to be too much. I don't think we can just live and let live anymore. Honestly the more I see discussion on it, the less chance I see of anything happening, and people like you and I end up being casualties of our own philosophy. Ok, that last part was kinda depressing, but I'm up way past my bedtime here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dillon View Post
    In another post you made, you mentioned licenses. At least federally, I'm unaware of any license requirement for any specific type of weapon, except for the most dangerous destructive devices (above Class II weapons). Every weapon purchase is subject to a background check at proper institutions, unless I believe, you have a concealed weapons permit, because of the checking done for it.
    Really? Well damn, I thought you were required to have a license to own a firearm. I do believe there are exemptions for rifles, at least here in Alabama.

    EDIT - Speaking of which, I have to get to bed. It was a good conversation, with both you and Beavis. Then again, we're not radicals on this issue.
    Last edited by Chonogo; 2012-12-22 at 10:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Man, there really should have been an Xzibit cameo in Inception.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    The intent by the way, was to counter the argument that says "Cars kill more than guns why don't you forbid them first ?". It's also wrong because cars are used way way more than guns - that 272M guns figure should probably be replaced by the 45M gun owners, and I assume they don't go out to the range / hunt twice a day.
    Used in what? "Mass murder" by car? Almost all the car fatalities are due to car accidents where the gun shootings are not done by accident just a very few fraction of them. So you care comparing car crashes (accidents, unintended) vs gun shooting victims (inteded as someone 9/10 inteded and pulled the trigger as such) and you consider them the same. Another flawed logic.

  3. #723
    Mechagnome Guilu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    673
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    The tyranny of the majority isn't something we should lauding.
    Neither is the tyranny of the minority is it ? Gun owners are a minority, a minority whose rights result in unnecessary deaths.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 11:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Used in what? "Mass murder" by car? Almost all the car fatalities are due to car accidents where the gun shootings are not done by accident just a very few fraction of them. So you care comparing car crashes (accidents, unintended) vs gun shooting victims (inteded as someone 9/10 inteded and pulled the trigger as such) and you consider them the same. Another flawed logic.
    What ? I wasn't even responding to your post

  4. #724
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    2,836
    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Guns are tools and their only purpose is to kill or harm as much as possible the target you are shooting at. The car is a mean of transportation, it can be lethal if you hit someone but that's not intended and or it's proper use.

    Read up and stop trying to trivialize the "gun" to "it's just a tool that we use for self-defence".
    Really? A $300,000 Lambo that tops out at 217mph is just a means of transportation?

    I think not.

    People buy supercars for a lot of different reasons, but getting from A to B usually isn't one of them. And going from A to B at 200 mph will get you thrown in jail and your license suspended. Yet, we as a society have no problem selling vehicles that have capacities that are well beyond what is necessary for their primary purpose and would be incredibly dangerous to use outside of a well regulated environment.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 10:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Image doesn't work.

    But it says Lamborghini. The question is, is it street legal in America?
    Yep. I've seen them rolling down the street in LA.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    What ? I wasn't even responding to your post
    Yeah I know but the post was in general so people understand that the comparison car vs guns is beyong flawed. And I still don't understand why the gun owners posting in this thread are trying to "trivialize" the gun as just a "tool". I would expect them from all people to know better...

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 12:49 PM ----------

    Get into your thick head, cars =/= guns. Read the post above to find out how your logic is yes beyong retarded.

  6. #726
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    2,836
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    Neither is the tyranny of the minority is it ? Gun owners are a minority, a minority whose rights result in unnecessary deaths.
    So are drunk drivers. Where's the push to ban alcohol?
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  7. #727
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    In your dome.
    Posts
    3,563
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    The intent by the way, was to counter the argument that says "Cars kill more than guns why don't you forbid them first ?". It's also wrong because cars are used way way more than guns - that 272M guns figure should probably be replaced by the 45M gun owners, and I assume they don't go out to the range / hunt twice a day.
    it might be 45 million households have guns, thats not 45 million gun owners; why to change from number of guns to households? I thought you wanted honest results, or are you again being dishonest and trying to skew or make up something to suit your opinion?

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal.

  8. #728
    Stood in the Fire Dillon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    463
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    *snip*
    Well I hope it doesn't sound too insensitive to those affected by violence in general, I like to side with Christopher Hitchens on the subject of debate. I love debate, it's the only real way to challenge what you think you know and what you believe. It's the only kind of conversation worth having and the only way a consensus will ever be reached about anything is by discussing it among those of opposing views.

    Funny you should mention being radical. I was radical about gun rights, and the entire debate surrounding the violence lately sparked my interest enough to take a look. Generally I've avoided it on MMO-Champion unless I see someone who is calm and uses reason when portraying their views rather than getting in a monkey shit flinging competition, which regrettably has been most of it here. Anyway..

    Over the last few weeks I've thought about it, and even as someone who feels like a libertarian, I've felt my views being challenged, with reason and debate, I've found it hard to argue against some points. So in conclusion, I used to believe that anyone should be able to own basically anything as long as they aren't insane or a criminal (and the clear and present danger thing, too), but I can't feel true objection within me to some suggested regulations.

    I just want it done right, I want it done with clarity and definition, with logic, and with true respect for the right to bare arms, because once a portion of a right is conceded to government control, it's almost impossible to ever get it back.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Seran View Post
    it might be 45 million households have guns, thats not 45 million gun owners; why to change from number of guns to households? I thought you wanted honest results, or are you again being dishonest and trying to skew or make up something to suit your opinion?
    Sorry, last post before bed.

    If you were honest about numbers, you would include gun-related injuries as well. And be damn sure that the 9000 number includes accidental shootings and suicides.

    The numbers I find are much greater than 9000.

    http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/...S/GUNSTAT.html
    In the U.S. for 2010, there were 31,513 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 19,308; Homicide 11,015; Accident 600. This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S. The number of firearms-related injuries in the U.S., both fatal and non-fatal, increased through 1993, declined to 1999, and has remained relatively constant since. However, firearms injuries remain a leading cause of death in the U.S., particularly among youth (CDC, 2001) (Sherry et al, 2012).
    Last edited by Chonogo; 2012-12-22 at 11:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Man, there really should have been an Xzibit cameo in Inception.

  10. #730
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    In your dome.
    Posts
    3,563
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Sorry, last post before bed.

    If you were honest about numbers, you would include gun-related injuries as well. And be damn sure that the 9000 number includes accidental shootings and suicides.

    The numbers I find are much greater than 9000.
    Again attempting to insult and call me dishonest, I wish you well in your campaign of fear mongering... I've seen enough.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal.

  11. #731
    Mechagnome Guilu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    673
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    So are drunk drivers. Where's the push to ban alcohol?
    Well, you know, down in the history books as a terrible terrible idea. The push to promote responsible behaviour with alcohol is there though. At least in France, I don't know how you manage on your side of the Atlantic.

    EDIT: Now that I think about it, the push to ban alcohol is right next door! On the other side of the Medditerranean to be precise. It might just work for them, who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seran View Post
    it might be 45 million households have guns, thats not 45 million gun owners; why to change from number of guns to households? I thought you wanted honest results, or are you again being dishonest and trying to skew or make up something to suit your opinion?
    I want honest results because all these 272M guns are not being used at once; my points was that they're used way less than the 243M cars and yet still cause a significant amount of destruction.

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Seran View Post
    Again attempting to insult and call me dishonest, I wish you well in your campaign of fear mongering... I've seen enough.
    You have a serious problem with determining what an insult is.

    But I am calling you dishonest, see my link above. You're intentionally focusing on gun-related murders, and using that as a basis for how often guns are used to harm people. The real number is far greater.

    But if you want to keep painting me as, well, whatever you're trying to paint me as, carry on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Man, there really should have been an Xzibit cameo in Inception.

  13. #733
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    2,836
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    Well, you know, down in the history books as a terrible terrible idea. The push to promote responsible behaviour with alcohol is there though. At least in France, I don't know how you manage on your side of the Atlantic.
    Oh yeah, it blew up in our faces too. I doubt gun prohibition would go down much better here either though.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  14. #734
    NRA future news +++ crazy school cop shot 20 children and 3 teachers +++ he was there to protect the children but killed them +++ NRA now wants to arm every child with guns +++ debate today: toddler gun training, a good idea? +++




  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    NRA future news +++ crazy school cop shot 20 children and 3 teachers +++ he was there to protect the children but killed them +++ NRA now wants to arm every child with guns +++ debate today: toddler gun training, a good idea? +++
    Yeah they kinda ignore the elephant in the room. You need education + strict gun laws to prevent it. Doing just one or the other is useless. But they ignore the last part since it's againts their "goal".

  16. #736
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Indiana, US
    Posts
    11,278
    My high school had a police officer assigned to it, and we never had any shootings. Coincidence? Probably. But it certainly didn't hurt.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    My high school had a police officer assigned to it, and we never had any shootings. Coincidence? Probably. But it certainly didn't hurt.
    My school didn't have a police officer and didn't have any shootings.

    Not really relevant in any way.

  18. #738
    The Unstoppable Force RICH816's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Portsmouth, UK
    Posts
    20,408
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    My high school had a police officer assigned to it, and we never had any shootings. Coincidence? Probably. But it certainly didn't hurt.
    My school had a padlock on the main gate and anti vandal paint on the tops of walls as security, no shootings here either.

  19. #739
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    2,836
    My school did have shootings. Then they brought in cops and metal detectors. No more shootings.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  20. #740
    The Lightbringer JfmC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Antwerp City
    Posts
    3,518
    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    put armed police officers in every school." He offered up the NRA's unique "knowledge, dedication, and resources" to assist in efforts to train those forces, but made no mention of a fiscal contribution. [/URL]
    So the NRA is going to train said police officers? For a set price and some government budgets ofcoarse. I saddens me that people think the NRA supports the idea behind the second amendment, while there actually just trying to make money.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •