Page 35 of 47 FirstFirst ...
25
33
34
35
36
37
45
... LastLast
  1. #681
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    The tyranny of the majority isn't something we should lauding.
    Neither is the tyranny of the minority is it ? Gun owners are a minority, a minority whose rights result in unnecessary deaths.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 11:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Used in what? "Mass murder" by car? Almost all the car fatalities are due to car accidents where the gun shootings are not done by accident just a very few fraction of them. So you care comparing car crashes (accidents, unintended) vs gun shooting victims (inteded as someone 9/10 inteded and pulled the trigger as such) and you consider them the same. Another flawed logic.
    What ? I wasn't even responding to your post

  2. #682
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    2,843
    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Guns are tools and their only purpose is to kill or harm as much as possible the target you are shooting at. The car is a mean of transportation, it can be lethal if you hit someone but that's not intended and or it's proper use.

    Read up and stop trying to trivialize the "gun" to "it's just a tool that we use for self-defence".
    Really? A $300,000 Lambo that tops out at 217mph is just a means of transportation?

    I think not.

    People buy supercars for a lot of different reasons, but getting from A to B usually isn't one of them. And going from A to B at 200 mph will get you thrown in jail and your license suspended. Yet, we as a society have no problem selling vehicles that have capacities that are well beyond what is necessary for their primary purpose and would be incredibly dangerous to use outside of a well regulated environment.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 10:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Image doesn't work.

    But it says Lamborghini. The question is, is it street legal in America?
    Yep. I've seen them rolling down the street in LA.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  3. #683
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    What ? I wasn't even responding to your post
    Yeah I know but the post was in general so people understand that the comparison car vs guns is beyong flawed. And I still don't understand why the gun owners posting in this thread are trying to "trivialize" the gun as just a "tool". I would expect them from all people to know better...

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 12:49 PM ----------

    Get into your thick head, cars =/= guns. Read the post above to find out how your logic is yes beyong retarded.

  4. #684
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    2,843
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    Neither is the tyranny of the minority is it ? Gun owners are a minority, a minority whose rights result in unnecessary deaths.
    So are drunk drivers. Where's the push to ban alcohol?
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  5. #685
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Langley, London, Undisclosed Locations
    Posts
    11,355
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    The intent by the way, was to counter the argument that says "Cars kill more than guns why don't you forbid them first ?". It's also wrong because cars are used way way more than guns - that 272M guns figure should probably be replaced by the 45M gun owners, and I assume they don't go out to the range / hunt twice a day.
    it might be 45 million households have guns, thats not 45 million gun owners; why to change from number of guns to households? I thought you wanted honest results, or are you again being dishonest and trying to skew or make up something to suit your opinion?

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  6. #686
    Stood in the Fire Dillon's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    466
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    *snip*
    Well I hope it doesn't sound too insensitive to those affected by violence in general, I like to side with Christopher Hitchens on the subject of debate. I love debate, it's the only real way to challenge what you think you know and what you believe. It's the only kind of conversation worth having and the only way a consensus will ever be reached about anything is by discussing it among those of opposing views.

    Funny you should mention being radical. I was radical about gun rights, and the entire debate surrounding the violence lately sparked my interest enough to take a look. Generally I've avoided it on MMO-Champion unless I see someone who is calm and uses reason when portraying their views rather than getting in a monkey shit flinging competition, which regrettably has been most of it here. Anyway..

    Over the last few weeks I've thought about it, and even as someone who feels like a libertarian, I've felt my views being challenged, with reason and debate, I've found it hard to argue against some points. So in conclusion, I used to believe that anyone should be able to own basically anything as long as they aren't insane or a criminal (and the clear and present danger thing, too), but I can't feel true objection within me to some suggested regulations.

    I just want it done right, I want it done with clarity and definition, with logic, and with true respect for the right to bare arms, because once a portion of a right is conceded to government control, it's almost impossible to ever get it back.

  7. #687
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Langley, London, Undisclosed Locations
    Posts
    11,355
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Sorry, last post before bed.

    If you were honest about numbers, you would include gun-related injuries as well. And be damn sure that the 9000 number includes accidental shootings and suicides.

    The numbers I find are much greater than 9000.
    Again attempting to insult and call me dishonest, I wish you well in your campaign of fear mongering... I've seen enough.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  8. #688
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    So are drunk drivers. Where's the push to ban alcohol?
    Well, you know, down in the history books as a terrible terrible idea. The push to promote responsible behaviour with alcohol is there though. At least in France, I don't know how you manage on your side of the Atlantic.

    EDIT: Now that I think about it, the push to ban alcohol is right next door! On the other side of the Medditerranean to be precise. It might just work for them, who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seran View Post
    it might be 45 million households have guns, thats not 45 million gun owners; why to change from number of guns to households? I thought you wanted honest results, or are you again being dishonest and trying to skew or make up something to suit your opinion?
    I want honest results because all these 272M guns are not being used at once; my points was that they're used way less than the 243M cars and yet still cause a significant amount of destruction.

  9. #689
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    2,843
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    Well, you know, down in the history books as a terrible terrible idea. The push to promote responsible behaviour with alcohol is there though. At least in France, I don't know how you manage on your side of the Atlantic.
    Oh yeah, it blew up in our faces too. I doubt gun prohibition would go down much better here either though.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  10. #690
    NRA future news +++ crazy school cop shot 20 children and 3 teachers +++ he was there to protect the children but killed them +++ NRA now wants to arm every child with guns +++ debate today: toddler gun training, a good idea? +++
    Atoms are liars, they make up everything!

  11. #691
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    NRA future news +++ crazy school cop shot 20 children and 3 teachers +++ he was there to protect the children but killed them +++ NRA now wants to arm every child with guns +++ debate today: toddler gun training, a good idea? +++
    Yeah they kinda ignore the elephant in the room. You need education + strict gun laws to prevent it. Doing just one or the other is useless. But they ignore the last part since it's againts their "goal".

  12. #692
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Indiana, US
    Posts
    11,392
    My high school had a police officer assigned to it, and we never had any shootings. Coincidence? Probably. But it certainly didn't hurt.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    My high school had a police officer assigned to it, and we never had any shootings. Coincidence? Probably. But it certainly didn't hurt.
    My school didn't have a police officer and didn't have any shootings.

    Not really relevant in any way.

  14. #694
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    My high school had a police officer assigned to it, and we never had any shootings. Coincidence? Probably. But it certainly didn't hurt.
    My school had a padlock on the main gate and anti vandal paint on the tops of walls as security, no shootings here either.

  15. #695
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    2,843
    My school did have shootings. Then they brought in cops and metal detectors. No more shootings.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  16. #696
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    put armed police officers in every school." He offered up the NRA's unique "knowledge, dedication, and resources" to assist in efforts to train those forces, but made no mention of a fiscal contribution. [/URL]
    So the NRA is going to train said police officers? For a set price and some government budgets ofcoarse. I saddens me that people think the NRA supports the idea behind the second amendment, while there actually just trying to make money.

  17. #697
    I'd love to see an example of how gun laws have worked in America. Because they haven't. The most dangerous cities in America are the ones who have the most restrictive gun laws.

    America is safer today than in 1993. How has the rate of firearms-related murder changed in recent years?
    In 2011 there were 14,612 murder victims, of which 9,903 were killed by assailants with firearms, according to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports.

    The rate of firearms-related murders in 2011 was 3.2 per 100,000 people – a sharp decline from 1993 when the rate of firearms-related murders was 6.6 per 100,000 people.

    The number of firearms-related murder victims dropped from more than 17,000 in 1993 to 9,903 in 2011.
    http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news...n-america?lite

    How many firearms are manufactured in the United States?
    According to the annual statistical report from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, in 2010 more than 5.4 million firearms were manufactured in the United States. In the 20 years from 1990 to 2010, an average of 4 million firearms were made in the United States every year.

    How many firearms are imported into the United States annually?
    According to the ATF, 3.2 million guns were legally imported into the United States in 2011, up from 1.3 million in 2001.

    So the amount of firearms has increased in our country by at least several million a year and yet we are safer? How does that compute for all you gun control advocates?

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 01:30 PM ----------

    Anyone here ever been assaulted by an 'assault rifle' or know somebody that has? Never heard of a gun that could assault people. I've heard of people that could assault people but never a gun. THEY MUST HAVE BECOME 'SELF AWARE' OMG! WHERE IS JON CONNOR? ZOMG!
    Last edited by bellabulldog; 2012-12-22 at 01:32 PM.

  18. #698
    Deleted
    @bellabulldog Correlation does not equal causation.
    There are more restrictive laws in densely populated areas because they are places where violence is more common, not the other way around. Whether a law that can be avoided simply by driving a few kilometers is at all efficient is another matter.
    Meanwhile the amount of guns owned in Australia has drastically diminished and their amount of gun related homicides has dropped, unsurprisingly.

    Also, how many of the guns you mention are for civilians ? How many were exported ?

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    @bellabulldog Correlation does not equal causation.
    There are more restrictive laws in densely populated areas because they are places where violence is more common, not the other way around. Whether a law that can be avoided simply by driving a few kilometers is at all efficient is another matter.
    Meanwhile the amount of guns owned in Australia has drastically diminished and their amount of gun related homicides has dropped, unsurprisingly.

    Also, how many of the guns you mention are for civilians ? How many were exported ?
    Lots of them are for civilians. http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/...34893820070828 Read the article. http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/17/wh...st-gun-control

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 02:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Correlation =/= causation. Just because someone didn't die by a gun doesn't mean they weren't assaulted by one.

    http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/...S/GUNSTAT.html



    You can't just ignore the ones that didn't die and then claim that we're safer.
    We are safer. No doubt in my mind. Shouldn't be in yours either. Firearms that are handled improperly are inherently dangerous. http://johnrlott.tripod.com/postsbyday/RTCResearch.html

    This is a causal relationship.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    I have my doubts. Statistics are horrible for the case that more guns = safer.



    Not in the slightest.
    http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/ficap/reso.../monograph.pdf

    Also, from the CDC:
    Year injuries Population Crude Rate
    2001 63,012 284,968,955 22.11
    2002 58,841 287,625,193 20.46
    2003 65,834 290,107,933 22.69
    2004 64,389 292,805,298 21.99
    2005 69,825 295,516,599 23.63
    2006 71,417 298,379,912 23.93
    2007 69,863 301,231,207 23.19
    2008 78,622 304,093,966 25.85
    2009 66,769 306,771,529 21.76
    2010 73,505 308,745,538 23.81
    2011 73,883 311,591,917 23.71

    That's non-fatal gun related injuries. I don't see any decreases here.

    Now the fatal data:
    Year Deaths Population CrudeRate
    1999 28,874 279,040,181 10.35
    2000 28,663 281,421,906 10.19
    2001 29,573 284,968,955 10.38
    2002 30,242 287,625,193 10.51
    2003 30,136 290,107,933 10.39
    2004 29,569 292,805,298 10.10
    2005 30,694 295,516,599 10.39
    2006 30,896 298,379,912 10.35
    2007 31,224 301,231,207 10.37
    2008 31,593 304,093,966 10.39
    2009 31,347 306,771,529 10.22
    2010 31,672 308,745,538 10.26
    Total 364,483 3,530,708,217 10.32

    Again, not much change.

    We're looking at about 100,000 firearm related injuries(fatal and non-fatal) per year in the past 10 years.
    Of course you will have more injuries as more guns come around. If you handle a firearm enough you will have an accident with it. None of those differntiate between criminal use and just negligence. So keep trying.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •