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  1. #1
    Epic! schwank05's Avatar
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    Best Disc talent

    Hello all

    Looking to see which of the 2 talents has better mana return, Mindbender or Solace and Insanity? any advice is appreciated.

  2. #2
    Solace if used on cooldown (which, let's face it, it should be. An instant 100K heal to the lowest target in the raid, why wouldn't you).

  3. #3
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    Let's talk about mana regen cooldowns
    Here are the basics..

    Mindbender
    Returns 4,380 (1.46%) mana per attack and will attack 10 times before de-spawning. That's 43,800 mana per cast and per minute. On top of calculating the cost of holy fire; 28,800 additional mana spent.

    Shadowfiend
    Returns 9,000 (3%) mana per attack and will attack eight times before de-spawning. That's 72,000 mana per cast, or 24,000 mana per minute. On top of calculating the cost of holy fire; 28,800 additional mana spent.

    Solace
    Returns 18,000 mana per minute. On top of having 0 mana cost for an additional 28,800 mana saved.
    Thus a total savings of 22,680 mana every minute.

    So thus we have...

    Shadowfiend + Solace
    18,000 + 24,000 = 42,000 Mana Per Minute.
    (42,000 + 22,680)7 Minutes = 452,760 mana.
    (42,000 + 22,680)10 Minutes = 646,800 mana.

    Mindbender
    10 attacks: 43,800 Mana Per Minute.
    43,800(7 Minute Fight) = 306,600 mana over 7 minutes.
    43,800(10 Minute Fight) = 438,00 mana over 10 minutes.

    If you calculate holy fire when using mindbender(which you should be) the number are going to have a much greater margin in terms of how much mana you will have over the course of a fight. In which case, you would just subtract the cost of holy fire over 7 minutes, and 10 minutes. From it's mindbender counterpart. It should also be known that both fiend/bender scale with haste; and at the time I do not have formulas to calculate additional mana gained through haste.

    Holy Fire Cost(used on cooldown + 5 stacks of Evengalism)
    7 Minutes = 158,760 mana spent
    10 minutes = 226,800 mana spent


    These numbers are based on if mind bender and fiend would be used at the start of a fight and calculate the cost of holy fire with mindbender with perfect usage as a base guideline to see how much benefit each gives at it's FULLEST potential.



    Conclusion
    You can clearly see that solace grants you significantly more mana over the course of a fight, while the calculations of holy fire VS solace free mana cost are not regeneration tools, it's mana not spent/spent over the course of a fight that will add up to your casting costs.

    Solace + Shadowfiend
    The thing with solace and fiend, is that you must have near perfect timing and not miss a lot of cool downs on solace, as well as being sure to be casting shadowfiend as early into a fight as possible to make sure it's available 2-3 times per fight. So all in all, for the more skilled priest with tracking cool downs Solace + Shadowfiend has the potential to grant substantially more mana over the course of a fight. It's also good to know that the longer the fight, and the better the usage on cooldown; the better these two in combination scale. Obviously grants significantly more mana over the course of a fight. SO the TL;DR version is: If you use solace and shadowfiend well, it is much better then mindbender for Discipline priest. Holy is another story..

    Mindbender
    The nice part about this, is it's a quick cast and forget spell. You cast it, and you don't need to worry about what happens after that(for the most part). It should also be known, this spell has greater ability to stack with multiple hymn of hope buffs over the course of a fight if you have multiple priests. Calculating the cost of holy fire brings down it's value compared to solace significantly.
    Source http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...de-5-2-Edition

  4. #4
    Solace wasn't affected by the Atonement nerf so while dealing the same amount of damage as Holy Fire, it heals for 10% more. Plus you should already be casting Holy Fire whenever it's up so the switch to Solace doesn't change anything.

  5. #5
    But mindbender does more damage, doesn't it?

  6. #6
    Yes, but you're not a DPS.

  7. #7
    Epic! schwank05's Avatar
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    OK, so Solace it is then from the Math Tenaru Posted. Thanks for the comments all.

  8. #8
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    Just to further point out it's not my math, that's a straight quote from the Disc raiding guide by HolyLathusDisc, accurate or not, I'm not taking credit for it
    Just seemed like the simplest thing to forward the numbers.

  9. #9
    Is Solace still better for fights where you spend most of your time (or perhaps, fights that have phases of extreme raid damage e.g. Megaera Rampage) doing AOE heals, and sometimes you can't spare the GCD for Solace? Or is Solace just outright better for every fight?
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  10. #10
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    I use Mindbender for hc Horridon, not cause I wouldn't cast solace on cd, but because Mindbender is stupidly nice for the Rhinos.

    I keep swapping between solace and mindbender for heroic megaera, I know mathematically solace should still be better, but I quite like having mindbender "on demand" more often with the mana if I happen to all the sudden spend more than usual.

    The only other one where I personally prefer mindbender is Leishen as there are often transitions where you dont get to solace at all for long periods.

    I don't find myself THAT short on mana most fights, even though I STILL dont have the bloody legendary meta gem (lacking 1 secret gg for RNG) nor do I have Horridons trinket (which has dropped once since ToT was introduced), so it boils down to personal preference on what to choose between mindbender and solace. As someone pointed out mindbender requires less "thinking ahead" nor do you have to worry about casting solace as often as possible, but once you get that mindset sorted for most bosses solace is just better mana-wise.

  11. #11
    Minbender absolutely.
    Solace it's more mana probably(not much more) but think that you are "loosing" too much GCD's to probably overheal, sometimes most injured player is not the best target to heal.
    Look at horridon hc, council hc or even jikun hc.
    Just a personal opinion :-)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenaru View Post
    The only other one where I personally prefer mindbender is Leishen as there are often transitions where you dont get to solace at all for long periods.
    That was also another one I was thinking of, but wasn't sure if the transition periods really justified using MB.
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  13. #13
    If you have over 10k spirit you can just go with solace, the mind bender is only good if your going oom too early which shouldn't happen.

    use mindbender for holy and use solace as disc.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by balrok69 View Post
    Minbender absolutely.
    Solace it's more mana probably(not much more) but think that you are "loosing" too much GCD's to probably overheal, sometimes most injured player is not the best target to heal.
    Look at horridon hc, council hc or even jikun hc.
    Just a personal opinion :-)
    So basically you aren't using holy fire as disc either? How exactly are you even getting evengalism stacks? What shitty spells are you casting?

    That was also another one I was thinking of, but wasn't sure if the transition periods really justified using MB.
    Not really long enough to justify that assuming that you're on the ball with solace using, esp. since you'll have an add to hit in the transitions as well now and then (might get real close if you disable diffusion first though).

    If you have over 10k spirit you can just go with solace, the mind bender is only good if your going oom too early which shouldn't happen.
    How would mindbender help if you are going oom too early? It gives less effective regen than solace...

  15. #15
    You don't lose any GCD if you pick Solace because you're already supposed to be casting Holy Fire as disc (the GCD you spent on Holy Fire would now be Solace). Holy has that issue, even though it's still marginally more mana for them, since Holy Fire isn't a part of their "rotation", that's a lot more GCD to use. If anything it makes waiting on Solace feel a little less forgiving, which I personally believe is fine in a healing intense fight like Megeara, I still like to build up Evangelism, even if it's slowly.

  16. #16
    You are loosing a GCD because with solace feels mandatory to cast HF/Solace for mana return, with mindbender no. If you are just spaming SM/HF/Penance probably you are doing wrong specially in 5.3

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by vanityking View Post
    You don't lose any GCD if you pick Solace because you're already supposed to be casting Holy Fire as disc (the GCD you spent on Holy Fire would now be Solace). Holy has that issue, even though it's still marginally more mana for them, since Holy Fire isn't a part of their "rotation", that's a lot more GCD to use. If anything it makes waiting on Solace feel a little less forgiving, which I personally believe is fine in a healing intense fight like Megeara, I still like to build up Evangelism, even if it's slowly.

    For holy it's actually less mana than mindbender (the reason it's more for disc is because it basically removes the mana cost on hf), but you do get a mana free smartheal as well.

    You are loosing a GCD because with solace feels mandatory to cast HF/Solace for mana return, with mindbender no. If you are just spaming SM/HF/Penance probably you are doing wrong specially in 5.3
    No, you basically need to cast Penance and hf/solace close to on cd. The only time where solace is a worse heal than the alternatives is in situations with very heavy aoe, but even then you can't delay solace for long since penance alone isn't enough to reach 5 stacks of evengalism in time. There's no situation where you want to delay solace so much that mindbender becomes better, because if you did that'd also mean that you won't have enough evengalism stacks to make use of archangel (which very much is required if there's so heavy aoe that you wouldn't want to solace for the heal).

  18. #18
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    (might get real close if you disable diffusion first though).
    That's basically what we've been doing so far on normal 25, thus I just somewhat prefer Mindbender there personally, but am sure either one will work out just fine as the mana gained is most likely pretty close in the end

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    How would mindbender help if you are going oom too early? It gives less effective regen than solace...
    All i meant was that, if your going oom your probably not using solace, the fiend may not give as much mana overall, but oom > some mana its better than solace, and the 1min cd means you can use it quite frequently. but yes solace will give more mana if your doing it right. mind bender is better for holy as they have no real mana saving grace.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    All i meant was that, if your going oom your probably not using solace, the fiend may not give as much mana overall, but oom > some mana its better than solace, and the 1min cd means you can use it quite frequently. but yes solace will give more mana if your doing it right. mind bender is better for holy as they have no real mana saving grace.
    If you can't press solace once every ~20 seconds (around where mindbender gets better) you should probably go play Hello Kitty instead of wow:P. Regarding holy I like to use solace here as well mostly because I play with a relatively low amount of spirit (my healing gear has several parts without any spirit) and it's a free heal, but for holy it's more of an actual choice and not just solace being outright better. Slightly more mana vs a free heal every 10 seconds (with the added restriction that you 'need to' use it), there are several fights where I definitely can see solace as a viable choice (even if you have more spirit than me:P)

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