Patch 5.2 PTR Mage Changes

[Deleted]

They have said that they can't really test PvP on PTR because they aren't enough people to do it properly.
Also, every class change a lot in the first half of an extension. It was the case in 4.1 with Frost, etc.

I see a lot of complaint about change that aren't open to test before 1 or 2 weeks.

[Zathrendar]

I'm not too worried about the PVP changes because I don't think they'll come to pass in their current form. My issue is with their overall design philosophy for mages.

[Venaliter]

Give them some tiny credit, their tests against all other spells/classes in the game are far more extensive than our own personal experiences. I'm not saying the changes they're suggesting are always good or make sense, but their testing is definitely superior to our own

Blizzard is woefully incompetent with Balance. They have great programming, quest, and content teams, but it's systems team, headed by the infamous Ghostcrawler, seems pretty inept.

[Sw1tch]

I fully agree that the line between all 3 specs has been blurred completely. I truly see very little difference between fire and frost, and arcane has been atrocious since I can remember in terms of style mechanics.

Mages need the MoP Warlock treatment; that is, an overhaul.

[Imnick]

Have you actually played both Fire and Frost in this expansion?
I don't mean to be rude but I am baffled as to how anyone can find them similar, the dynamic is far different.

[Difuid]

I'm guessing the part about critical mass has to be a typo. Multiplying something by 1 doesn't change it's value. If it isn't a typo then they might as well make critical mass surround us with invisible unicorns.

You know what? I will take the unicorns, if the pyro has them so can the fire mages. Should they throw in rainbow bomb to the mix I would faint from pleasure

[Sw1tch]

Have you actually played both Fire and Frost in this expansion?
I don't mean to be rude but I am baffled as to how anyone can find them similar, the dynamic is far different.

You aren't, but i've played frost and fire extensively from the beginning of wrath up to this point. Frost uses frostbolt, fire uses fireball, frost uses a bomb, fire uses a bomb, fire uses pyroblast proc, frost uses IL/BF proc. Fire uses combustion, frost uses Frozen orb. Etc etc.

Hell, just look at the differences between specs by pressing N. Only a couple different things, whereas locks have about 6 different things that make each spec very unique, not to mention completely different resource systems. Magi (and I have had a mage since the end of BC as my main, so I don't say this lightly) have become boring, homogeneous, and have lost all spec identity. I still love frost, and arcane is definitely different, but the class as a whole doesn't change much because of how the L75 talents dictate style.

[Imnick]

If you're using Combustion like you would use Frozen Orb I'm very worried for your performance :/

[Deleted]

If you're using Combustion like you would use Frozen Orb I'm very worried for your performance :/

He was giving an example of how Fire compares with Frost in mechanics and how similar they are in the end. Whether he uses Combustion properly is irrelevant in the current discussion. True, Arcane is a bit different but it is a mess nonetheless. DPS class having to stay as close to 100% mana as possible to do damage? Sounds good and different on paper, but in reality it's a disaster. Yes, the numbers are there, for now, but the play style is atrocious, monotonous and dull beyond belief. No wonder we were dubbed the "One button class". IMO we should be asking for a revamp at this point.

Arcane's play style is awful, lvl90 talents are designed with Arcane in mind, so the other specs are suffering because of that. Mobility is minimal.
Fire is again under the iron fist of the RNG gods, gear alone will not solve Fire's problems, because as we witnessed, when Fire becomes good, it gets nerfed. Blizzard literally removes gear from Fire mages when they become good and fun.
Frost might be enjoyable for some, but it will always be plagued with constant nerfs and mechanic changes, because Blizzard decided that every mage should pvp as Frost. Frost will never excel in PvE solely for pvp reasons.
The mechanics of the three specs are very similar, the difference comes from the differently colored spell animations.
Talents are not only dull, but contain spells that are extremely situational, or in fact absolutely mandatory, because the other choices in some tiers are just laughable.

I can't imagine why this class left Beta in this form.

[Soulstrike]

He was giving an example of how Fire compares with Frost in mechanics and how similar they are in the end. Whether he uses Combustion properly is irrelevant in the current discussion. True, Arcane is a bit different but it is a mess nonetheless. DPS class having to stay as close to 100% mana as possible to do damage? Sounds good and different on paper, but in reality it's a disaster. Yes, the numbers are there, for now, but the play style is atrocious, monotonous and dull beyond belief. No wonder we were dubbed the "One button class". IMO we should be asking for a revamp at this point.

Arcane's play style is awful, lvl90 talents are designed with Arcane in mind, so the other specs are suffering because of that. Mobility is minimal.
Fire is again under the iron fist of the RNG gods, gear alone will not solve Fire's problems, because as we witnessed, when Fire becomes good, it gets nerfed. Blizzard literally removes gear from Fire mages when they become good and fun.
Frost might be enjoyable for some, but it will always be plagued with constant nerfs and mechanic changes, because Blizzard decided that every mage should pvp as Frost. Frost will never excel in PvE solely for pvp reasons.
The mechanics of the three specs are very similar, the difference comes from the differently colored spell animations.
Talents are not only dull, but contain spells that are extremely situational, or in fact absolutely mandatory, because the other choices in some tiers are just laughable.

I can't imagine why this class left Beta in this form.

let me ask you ONE question. when was the last time you had "fun" with mage rotation lol.

[Deleted]

let me ask you ONE question. when was the last time you had "fun" with mage rotation lol.

Honestly, I can't remember. That's why I want more attention towards mages. Look what they did to Warlocks, it's not fair at all. I'm not saying that my opinion is also the general opinion or something like this, it's just that - my opinion Some people might enjoy the mage as it is, but I don't. I love my mage too much though, so reroll is out of the question.

[Lothlan]

Honestly, I can't remember. That's why I want more attention towards mages. Look what they did to Warlocks, it's not fair at all. I'm not saying that my opinion is also the general opinion or something like this, it's just that - my opinion Some people might enjoy the mage as it is, but I don't. I love my mage too much though, so reroll is out of the question.

I would have to say mine was honestly just before the fire nerf. I finally had enough crit rating that I didn't have to fish pyro's with long stretches of spamming pyro and the playstyle was honestly very fun. That is of course not including the level 90 talents as it is something I just grin and bear. :>

[Sw1tch]

He was giving an example of how Fire compares with Frost in mechanics and how similar they are in the end. Whether he uses Combustion properly is irrelevant in the current discussion. True, Arcane is a bit different but it is a mess nonetheless. DPS class having to stay as close to 100% mana as possible to do damage? Sounds good and different on paper, but in reality it's a disaster. Yes, the numbers are there, for now, but the play style is atrocious, monotonous and dull beyond belief. No wonder we were dubbed the "One button class". IMO we should be asking for a revamp at this point.

Arcane's play style is awful, lvl90 talents are designed with Arcane in mind, so the other specs are suffering because of that. Mobility is minimal.
Fire is again under the iron fist of the RNG gods, gear alone will not solve Fire's problems, because as we witnessed, when Fire becomes good, it gets nerfed. Blizzard literally removes gear from Fire mages when they become good and fun.
Frost might be enjoyable for some, but it will always be plagued with constant nerfs and mechanic changes, because Blizzard decided that every mage should pvp as Frost. Frost will never excel in PvE solely for pvp reasons.
The mechanics of the three specs are very similar, the difference comes from the differently colored spell animations.
Talents are not only dull, but contain spells that are extremely situational, or in fact absolutely mandatory, because the other choices in some tiers are just laughable.

I can't imagine why this class left Beta in this form.

Exactly my point from earlier. Mages need the MoP Warlock treatment. I want unique talents, specializations that differ tremendously, some updated graphics. Just the things that almost every other class has received.

But I still love my mage and the idea of one, so i will always stick with it. I would say the main reason i'm so fervent towards overhauls is because of my adoration towards the spec.

[Zathrendar]

To be fair, I don't think locks benefited that much from it, either. Demo is very different, to be sure, but it's clunky as hell. Destro is the same as it has always been, with a little bit of PVP survivability added in and a slimmed down selection of spells. I think CB has lost all its individuality as a spell and requires a re-examination. Affliction continues to reign supreme with a fairly similar rotation to what it's always had.

I don't think they overhauled locks so much as gave them hugely needed mechanics that should've been baked into the class for ages now. Yes, each spec has its own resource mechanic but the rotations for destro and demo still feel lost. For instance, without Corruption and BoD to worry about, destro could've kept something like the ISF mechanic, which added to the spec's skill cap I do think they managed to differentiate the specs, at least, and the resource mechanics flow better now but they can't apply that logic to EVERY class, so they will need to be a bit more resourceful (kek) with mages. It was mostly demo that required it, anyway.

In spite of the mechanical changes to locks, they still don't really have much control. They just have survivability that puts them on par with other classes now. I hope no one thinks this is really a gift from Blizzard, so much as redressing a fundamental imbalance that has endured for two expansions. All the added fluff and visuals shouldn't distract from this. I just hope by the end of this xpac mages aren't in the same position. But yes, mages are in dire need of a rework. They may perform well but this shouldn't be confused with having diverse or interesting specs. Arcane is getting better, at least.

[Sw1tch]

Well it's all relative. When I was talking about overhaul, I mean't fixing those imbalances that all classes have, but only warlocks really received.

You could write a thesis on what's wrong with mages since Day 1. Fire has always been purely RNG dependent (awesome style, but don't let the RNG be dictated completely by how much gear you have, the proof is right in front of us because they always have to buff fire in the first tier then slowly nerf them down), Arcane has never really been liked style-wise, (of the numerous polls i've taken, people love the concept of arcane but hate the execution, and I concur) Frost is JUST getting out of the PvP stigma it stayed in until the middle of the most recent expansion. It still has yet to be a main raiding spec.

I don't mean to go down the path of "beating a dead horse" but pure classes should have all options just as awesome as any hybrid does. They did that for warlocks with a new resource system, new demons, new and better spec mechanics, green fire, unique talents, etc. Mages need this treatment ASAP, but I'm afraid that if blizzards doctrine is any evidence, we won't see that until the next expansion.

[Methusula]

Well it's all relative. When I was talking about overhaul, I mean't fixing those imbalances that all classes have, but only warlocks really received.

You could write a thesis on what's wrong with mages since Day 1. Fire has always been purely RNG dependent (awesome style, but don't let the RNG be dictated completely by how much gear you have, the proof is right in front of us because they always have to buff fire in the first tier then slowly nerf them down), Arcane has never really been liked style-wise, (of the numerous polls i've taken, people love the concept of arcane but hate the execution, and I concur) Frost is JUST getting out of the PvP stigma it stayed in until the middle of the most recent expansion. It still has yet to be a main raiding spec.

I don't mean to go down the path of "beating a dead horse" but pure classes should have all options just as awesome as any hybrid does. They did that for warlocks with a new resource system, new demons, new and better spec mechanics, green fire, unique talents, etc. Mages need this treatment ASAP, but I'm afraid that if blizzards doctrine is any evidence, we won't see that until the next expansion.

We likely won't ever see it. One of the main reasons warlocks received the flashy changes was because they were the second to least represented class in game, rogues being the least. Rogues didn't receive the flashy changes because they weren't as obvious. It's harder to make them stab something in a flashier way, although I'd wager they will still be receiving far more attention than mages who are among the most popular classes since always.

[Zathrendar]

Well they kinda rushed this expansion when it came to class design. Probably out of a rational fear of GW2. The truth of the matter is that more design time needed to be spent on all classes but mages in particular.

I'm not so sympathetic to rogues. Whatever their representation, they have performed well historically, especially in terms of gear scaling. I hope Blizzard remains sensible if and when they buff them.

[Aquamonkey]

Well they kinda rushed this expansion when it came to class design. Probably out of a rational fear of GW2. The truth of the matter is that more design time needed to be spent on all classes but mages in particular.

I'm not so sympathetic to rogues. Whatever their representation, they have performed well historically, especially in terms of gear scaling. I hope Blizzard remains sensible if and when they buff them.

I remember all the "ZOMG rogues stay stealthed after they attack you?!" now look at rogues. lol

[Elegiac]

Exactly my point from earlier. Mages need the MoP Warlock treatment. I want unique talents, specializations that differ tremendously, some updated graphics. Just the things that almost every other class has received.

But I still love my mage and the idea of one, so i will always stick with it. I would say the main reason i'm so fervent towards overhauls is because of my adoration towards the spec.

The problem, to my mind, is that unlike other classes which have recieved focused overhauls, mage changes have been rather gradual; as a result new mechanics are hampered by older relics. My primary example of this is Evocation. An artifact from the day when mages could legitimately run out of mana, this conflicts with Blizzard's recent direction of making sure that correctly played damage dealers and tanks should never 'run out' of a resource. Having a spell that requires you to stand still and channel in combat does two things; it restricts mobility, and forces balance around it since Mages lose DPS by having to use it.

Here is a list of possible fixes that might help the situation.

1) Mage mobility needs to be addressed. Our current tier of "Mobility Talents" are rather woeful since a) the cooldown on Presence of Mind makes it awful as a 'moblility enhancer' and relegates its use to instant polymorphs, runes of power, or dps padding, b) Scorch is problematic in that it is a spell that is only useful while moving, barring a certain Arcane rotation, and c) Ice Floes' spell limit and cooldown make it prohibitive for periods of extended movement. My solution is to make the Level 15 talents simply a utility tier, while giving us Ice Floes as a baseline Spiritwalker's Grace-style cooldown with no spell limit.

2) As iterated above, mana as a concern for DPS and Tanks is a concept going the way of the dodo. Both Evocation and Mana Gems need to be removed (for Fire and Frost, at least - see point 3), with Nether Attunement being our sole source of mana regeneration, and the Level 90 talents need to be uncoupled from mana regeneration and simply become DPS-enhancing options.

3) Arcane, of all the specs, seems to have the most clear direction in terms of playstyle; keeping your mana level around points which shift according to raid conditions, stats, and cooldowns. The problem lies with that it is the -only- Mage spec which still relies on mana management; thus, the tools for managing it really need to be Arcane only. Mana Gem can be replaced with an itemless spell (Mana Tap, or something similar :P) with the same benefit and cooldown, without needing to conjure a gem. Furthermore, Evocation -may- be able to be retained in order to give the "Burn phase" players some fan service. Finally, the Arcane Charge limit needs to be curtailed to 4 rather than 6; the ramp up makes the spec worthless for PvP and a hassle in PvE. Aside from that, the only changes needed are cosmetic; Arcane Blast needs its own animation, and Arcane Missiles needs a revamp.

4) Fire is, I would say, in the worst state of the three specs. Classically, Fire is the 'crit spec' - which introduces a ream of problems. It has been either a slave to RNG, or has had to rely on passive crit buffs (which are apparently too overpowered for PvP purposes). Retribution once had the same problem, and the solution to that was introducing a new resource to smooth out dps spikes; perhaps the same principle can be applied. Either way, crit problems aside the fact of the matter remains that Fire is a god-awful spec to play because it is -boring-. The rotation needs to be diversified; I look to Scorch weaving back in the day as a possible solution to this.

5) Frost's problem is that its quintessential control and burst makes it a dominating spec in PvP; the only way to balance this has been to nerf the damage, running the risk of making it inviable as a raid spec. The easiest solution to this, IMO, is completely divorcing its control from its damage. Shatter can be removed, and its crit/damage bonus rolled into Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze. The damage of its other spells can be buffed to compensate for the lack of Shatter bonus, making it a little less bursty and a little more streamlined. Also; Water Elemental needs to become an -optional- addition to the spec again, not the primary focus. You want a pet? Go play a lock.

6) The 'Survivability Tier' of Level 30 talents needs to be looked at, for the simple reason that Ice Barrier will almost always be the talent of choice. Why you ask? Active mitigation will pretty much always be more preferable than a speed burst or a health recovery talent - Blizz' current logic is that "everyone is taking it, ergo it must be OP". Wrong. Ice Barrier needs to be made a baseline survivability spell for mages (make us the Disc priests of self healers :P) and its talent slot filled with something else, perhaps bringing back Improved Blink or something improving Mirror Images as a survivability enhancing spell. Thus, mage survivability can be balanced around what they 'do have' rather than what they 'may pick'.

7) Making bombs a class-wide necessity was a horrible idea, to my mind. But, we're stuck with it unfortunately, so I'll work with it. The first issue is that, as an Arcane Mage, I hate having to cast out-of-school spells as part of my rotation. Mage Bomb needs to become an actual ability, varying in visual flavor by spec (Arcane has Arcane Bomb, Fire has Living Bomb, Frost has Frost Bomb), and the Level 60 talents need to change the functionality of the spell, not necessarily the animation. Furthermore, they need to become more an AoE enhancing tool rather than an integral part of a single-target rotation. Curtailing the single target damage while buffing the secondary damage would be a good way to accomplish this.

That's all I can think of for now. Oh, wait...stop designing shitty mage Tier sets, too.

[Zathrendar]

I don't want to say we need something like KJC, since that is a distinctly Warlock-y spell, but given that mages rely on mobility even more than locks, something to increase our mobility would help. I argued when I saw the re-designed PoM that it is an atrocious spell. PoM has always been atrocious, barring gimmicky burst set ups, which are a thing of the past. It should've been utilised as a kind of Chakra for arcane, allowing it to shift phases, e.g. a mobility phase that may reduce damage output and make the mage more vulnerable. Universalising the bombs and Scorch has cost the specs their individuality. I wouldnt've minded the Orb spells being retained and instead used as optional talents, since that spell lent itself to it. So I agree with more or less everything you said. If they keep Nether Tempest, I want it to have a nice, shiny animation, like those stars in the Algalon raid.