Page 15 of 75 FirstFirst ...
5
13
14
15
16
17
25
65
... LastLast
  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by kif View Post
    While I understand the changes to Scorch, kill 6 charge camping in Arcane. Got it.

    Why not adjust the "spec" bonuses to also include mana management. Arcane could still USE scorch for movement, but at the higher mana cost. For fire, you get a spec bonus reducing the mana cost of Fire spells including Living Bomb. If arcane is supposed to be about mastery...make it more powerful, but make the mastery/haste balance the tricky part. If you want arcane mages to cast ArB, give them a reason to cast it. Maybe when you cast ArB, you get a 10 second buff that boosts arcane damage and mana regen depending on the number of charges that you used. This would also allow arcane mages to use Scorch for those movement periods, with a reduced mana cost they can change locations and scorch along the way. Obviously tinkering with fire and keeping it "under control" as gear levels rise...is really tough. If you base CM off higher gear values...it wrecks the newly minted, not highly geared 90's.

    I honestly cannot speak for Frost, as I think I played frost for something like 15-20 levels the first time I leveled a mage...and never again since then.
    So, you want a free "Arcane power" buff every 15 seconds. If you do the maths, you will see that you are asking for an almost permanent buff to arcane just by following the intended rotation. Scorch weaving is just an invention of Arcane Mages "exploiting" in a way the mechanics of Arcane so they keep up the 6 charges for ever... this is the reason that Blizzard is changing this. Have a look what happened to fire spec!

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Perhaps I like the spreading functionality of LB, for instance.
    Where do you draw this line though?

    Can I come in here and demand that I want a spec that plays with all the mana management, stack size, missile procs of Arcane but use Fire spell graphics? Is that a valid request? Should we spend time on making that a big issue? Is catering to that demand more important then fixing deeply rooted core mechanical problems of the class?


    On a separate but equally valid point, your best friend Lhivera spent over HALF the beta championing this exact issue that you are talking about, that being, having spells be the right "color" since he felt that that was the single most important issue for the mage class (to some extent, he still does today).
    Funnily enough, throughout the entire beta, that was the only major change to the Mage talents. Where they went from being a perfectly normal set to spending 4-5 patch cycles making sure that Ice Flows looked 'frosty' and each row had a bog standard [Arcane][Fire][Frost] option.

    And even after that, he spent the rest of the beta trying to break the RoF, Ice Ward and Frost Jaw tier. He screamed about it soo loudly that it drowned out practically any other issue to do with the class. I am convinced that it is at least 75% of the reason blizzard completely ignored all the other feedback in the beta, since it seems some mages (mainly Lhivera) think that the color of your icons and the name of the spells is a more pressing and important issue which takes precedence over actual mechanical problems.



    On topic though, there is little we can say/rage about as far as these changes are concerned. The PTR isn't even up yet and given Blizz's track record with mages lately, even if it does go up and patch 5.2 goes live, things will be hotfixed into oblivion anyway. I think the best thing to do now is just to wait.


    Overall though, I think the 'jaded' feeling many mages are getting with the class now is finally sinking in (hate to say it, but I called it in beta). I think the reason for this is that Blizzard has somewhat given up on putting in any actual work into the class and are instead just 'developing by noise'.
    What this means, is that they just take the people who scream and shout the loudest on the forums and make changes to please them. This is precisely why pretty much every single change that is being made nowadays (and then quickly reverted, only to be hotfixed for a 3rd time) is the result of people like Lhivera (and others who don't really know what they are talking about) spending their entire lives on the official forums spamming topics with issues no one cares about, just to make it seem like 'everyone cares'.



    For example, look at this fantastic thread started by Terrorific (a mage who is well respected on the live forums by actual mages since he has sound opinions which he backs up with both fact and personal experience).
    In the thread Terror touches on a very good point, one which mages have been talking about since early beta, that being, the homogenization of the class. Of how all mage pvp damage was designed around a deep freeze. About how all mage specs are identical in how they deliver that damage (bomb + deep). His points are not only valid, but they are demonstrable, i.e. everyone who plays a mage for even just 5 mins will realize them to be true.

    But what happens next? Well its almost like a bad script by this point.
    Lhivera comes in and just blatantly, without any explanation or even any data (heck, he didn't even bother to do his usual "here look at some math that is totally irrelavant to the discussion), he just comes in and tells every single other mage in the thread that they are wrong and his reason? "Just because I, Lhivera, said so".


    These are the guys the design team listens to. How can the general mage population not feel disillusioned, jaded and miasmic when the people who have the most say about class design are the people who don't even play the class?


    I was speaking to some old friends this past week and I was shocked at how many extremely well respected mages of the greater theorycrafting community have quit because of MoP. Like literally I was making a list and almost every single one of them have either quit outright or rerolled because of MoP design. These are the very same respected mages who kept the class alive for so long on forums such as EJ, Subcreation etc.
    You can see it for yourself too. Just go to the EJ forums and see how dead they are. Then find the posts of mages who usually lead discussions and check their armories. Half of them don't exist anymore and the other half's mages are still at 85.


    It is a very dark downward spiral we are on my friends. Though I guess no one will listen to my warning. Even though my current track record for predictions is sitting squarely at 100% accurate.



    That being said, I think I have convinced at least 2 old mages to return, if nothing else, but to at least help out the class as far as theorycraft and direction are concerned (as well as to add some kind of voice that opposes Lhivera's complete BS). One of them even said he would join this community. Lets hope and pray friends.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  3. #283
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Emerald City
    Posts
    18,312
    Perhaps the most important change we need in 5.2:

    "Lhivera's MVP status has been revoked, and his NPC in WoW has been removed. The forums have enough asshats."
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  4. #284
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Germany/BW
    Posts
    901
    Thats a little bit harsh, isn´t it?

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Thats a little bit harsh, isn´t it?
    If he doesnt get a clue, not really nope. He comments on PvE stuff which he has no idea on. Well now that Zomgdps is unbanned again, look at his sig(2 posts up).. Lhivera actually said that

  6. #286
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Emerald City
    Posts
    18,312
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Thats a little bit harsh, isn´t it?
    No. Lhivera is not a valuable poster, let alone an MVP. He's partially responsible for the sad state of Mages, currently.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  7. #287
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Germany/BW
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    If he doesnt get a clue, not really nope. He comments on PvE stuff which he has no idea on. Well now that Zomgdps is unbanned again, look at his sig(2 posts up).. Lhivera actually said that
    Source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    No. Lhivera is not a valuable poster, let alone an MVP. He's partially responsible for the sad state of Mages, currently.
    If he is really responsible, then it´s an evidence of blizzards incapacity. All I know is, he is a number cruncher and he likes what he do. I don´t agree with some (many) things he came up with, but I would never blame someone because of his dedicaton.

  8. #288
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Emerald City
    Posts
    18,312
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    If he is really responsible, then it´s an evidence of blizzards incapacity. All I know is, he is a number cruncher and he likes what he do. I don´t agree with some (many) things he came up with, but I would never blame someone because of his dedicaton.
    I would. Let me use another's post as an explanation:

    What many fail to realize, is that Lhivera campaigned for many of the changes that currently are in place. Of course he is going to defend them. This thread was going very well with many points made by the OP and others about the concerns of the mage community about the class moving forward. Then we start seeing green text and lots of B.S. about how great everything is and suddenly (as if by design) the discussion had been derailed. There really is no value being added by these green posts as they are very much selfishly motivated by someone's exaggerated sense of self. It is one thing to have a discussion about the state of the class, but it is another to come in and hijack every thread that doesn't agree with talents you endorse despite having no experience with them.

    His 'number crunching' is purely theoretical and, point of fact, not even valid. He might be 'dedicated' - to his changes, not the class as a whole, mind you - but when that dedication is clearly detrimenting the class then blaming him for it is entirely justified.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  9. #289
    What does datamine say about mage tier set bonuses in 5.2?


    Has the MMO-C dataminers got any info on it?
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  10. #290
    I've not seen anything about anyone's tier bonuses just yet, I was interested in that too.

  11. #291
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    1,168
    Can we stop discussing about Lhivera here? He don't post here and I think that is influence is far more greatly overlooked than it really does.


    Now, back to the topic.
    2 days ago, there's a bunch of blue post about the mage that only confirm that for blizzard, Fire isn't as low than simulation show it. And they did it on purpose. It confirm my opinion that they did it only to have more people raiding as Arcane and Frost so they can have more data, just before 5.2 PTR.

    They have made some change that we can't test for the moment.

    • Ice Flows reduced cooldown.
    • Deep Freeze break on damage.
    • Living Bomb no spreadable & Frost Bomb no detonable.
    • new Invocation mechanics.

    There's some change that we still don't know but was more or less announced.
    • new Water Elemental ability
    • rune of power change
    • T15 bonus

    Did I miss something ??
    The answers is 42
    -------------------------
    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  12. #292
    cant wait for our super surprise tier 15 bonuses

    i think its going to be something along with hotstreak, AM and FOF not consuming charges (ulduar anyone??)

    id love something like.....

    2 set:your arcane missile, Hot streak, Brain freeze proc spells have X% to grant you dragon's fury granting you Y mastery/haste/crit rating (whichever one is the highest) maximum of 5stacks lasting 30s (5second cooldown on gaining charge). (probably like 600 rating each charge??? dunno)

    4set: every 3rd dragon's fury, your Hot streak, arcane missile, brain freeze proc wont consume the next charge instead it will consume 3 dragon's fury charge
    http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=soulstrikes in oceanic now Lol

    5172-1206-0622 pokemon FC Lets Battle!!

  13. #293
    Without meaning to get the thread off-topic or anything, I must sincerely thank zomgDPS for essentially letting me know that I'm not insane. Apparently the mage community at large really has been ass lately.

    To soulstrike, that's an interesting spin on the Ulduar tier bonuses. I don't know how that would pan out, but it seems like the power level of expansion end stuff, rather than middle of the road. At this point though, I don't know what to think. I haven't been playing all that much lately since mages just don't feel right at the moment. I can't really place it all specifically, but I don't know, I guess I'm just not all that interested right now. Which makes me sad. I suppose it could end up a pretty decent tier, I'm really liking the looks of it.

    /soul pour

  14. #294
    The Lightbringer Zathrendar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    The land of eternal grey
    Posts
    3,015
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Then you'd be using Living Bomb as Frost, defeating your own belief that you shouldn't use cross-spec spells.
    Changing the colour doesn't make it a different spell, it'd still be Living Bomb and everyone including you would know that :U

    I really think this issue is out of place on your list as it is essentially a personal opinion change rather than a balance one, whereas the others are mostly fairly objective balance issues. It sort of weakens your whole list to put a personal feeling that has little outside support into it.
    Why bother with specs, at all? If mages have elementally based specs, it ruins the feel of it to cast fire based spells as part of the core rotation. You may see this as "personal opinion", and it is, but people don't just play to see numbers flying in the air. If you do, fair enough, but that isn't why I do.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 11:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphamage View Post
    So, you want a free "Arcane power" buff every 15 seconds. If you do the maths, you will see that you are asking for an almost permanent buff to arcane just by following the intended rotation. Scorch weaving is just an invention of Arcane Mages "exploiting" in a way the mechanics of Arcane so they keep up the 6 charges for ever... this is the reason that Blizzard is changing this. Have a look what happened to fire spec!
    I was quite happy with Scorch-weaving insofar as fire is concerned, and it is one thing I wish fire was designed around. For arcane, the whole 6 charge mechanic is horrendous.

    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Where do you draw this line though?
    Scorch and Living Bomb were both fire spells before. If they wanted to give arcane and frost the optional AOE potential of fire, they can just bake Mage Bomb into each spec and think a little harder for the talents to replace those spells. Presence of Mind also needs a look at. Now, whether arcane or frost actually need that AOE potential or whether it should be fire's niche is a separate issue, but the AOE niche is a pretty controversial one, considering how a good deal of raid fights now require AOE. The removal of Blast Wave and baking it into Flamestrike were also daft. You can draw the line where spells begin to become rotational, anyway.

    I am less miffed about Blizzard freely giving away Deep Freeze, as I think the other specs woefully lack control, but granting Shatter to all three specs in addition to that spell was stupid. Yes, Blizzard should prioritise the mechanics and then think about the visuals, but they fail even at that level at present. You cannot exclude the feel the spec has from how people view it. Ideally, I'd like each spec to be different from the other at both the visual and mechanical level.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2012-12-28 at 11:57 AM.

  15. #295
    But Mages have always had a multi-school toolkit though :U
    Where do you draw the line?
    Should we do away with Blink, Frost Nova, Ice Block, Cone of Cold?
    Am I supposed to be encasing myself in a block of Fire to remove all incoming damage?
    Should we not have Ice Barrier for anyone except Frost? Limit Fire to that spell that makes you run fast every couple of seconds?
    Do cross-spec spells you cast on cooldown count as rotational? For a good long time all Arcane mages had enough talent points that they were expected to spec into Icy Veins. Every Frost Mage worth his salt would have Ignite. All Mage specs would make use of Flame Orb even though Arcane didn't have a talent to morph it into a different spell. Brain Freeze used to let you cast Fireball rather than Frostfire Bolt. It was only in Cataclysm that we weren't expected to use cross-spec skills for AOE.

    And if you're going to ask that Blizzard make three different animations for every talent, I can tell you in advance that there's a 0% chance there is going to happen.

    On top of that, Arcane is already meant to be "element-free magic" so it's very difficult for developers to make things that aren't one of the three.
    And also pointless.

    Each spec should have a clear visual identity but apart from Arcane (which frankly might become more noticeable once we actually cast Barrage regularly) they already do, bombs are barely noticable as spell effects at all in the chaotic mess that enemy mobs turn into when they're attacked by a whole raid group, even if they are attacked by a 5 man arena team/
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-12-28 at 03:05 PM.

  16. #296
    I just want to point out that ALL Mage specs took Shatter for PvP when it was a talent...so it being baseline doesn't change anything.

  17. #297
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Emerald City
    Posts
    18,312
    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    I just want to point out that ALL Mage specs took Shatter for PvP when it was a talent...so it being baseline doesn't change anything.
    Still, it's not necessarily a justification for it being there currently (given the changing face of PvP). One could easily say that protribution should be shrined for paladins by the same note.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Still, it's not necessarily a justification for it being there currently (given the changing face of PvP). One could easily say that protribution should be shrined for paladins by the same note.
    The reason it's baseline is that it was already mandatory and it forced people to spec a certain amount of points in Frost, which limited what they could get otherwise and trust me, people complained. It being baseline doesn't ruin anything and removing it actually hurts Fire and Arcane more than anything, and I doubt anyone wants to hurt Fire and Arcane Mages in PvP.

  19. #299
    Are you sure they wouldn't try to harm those specs in PvP? I mean they did nearly drop a 3 second CD on pyro for PvP concerns with Blizzard apparently just looking away from frost mages that were absolutely destroying people with frost bomb at the time. Honestly its getting to the point where I won't be surprised regardless of how insane a proposed change might be. I mean they did let the 5.1 buff go live after all. What can they really even say about that? Failure to communicate inside of the company? Can't do math? Clever reason to nerf fire to get data for frost and arcane? Are any of these something you can look at in a good light? They're doing a VERY poor job with mages this expansion. I would say something about level 90 talents too but I don't want this to turn into an essay.
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2012-12-28 at 06:59 PM.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    cant wait for our super surprise tier 15 bonuses

    i think its going to be something along with hotstreak, AM and FOF not consuming charges (ulduar anyone??)

    id love something like.....

    2 set:your arcane missile, Hot streak, Brain freeze proc spells have X% to grant you dragon's fury granting you Y mastery/haste/crit rating (whichever one is the highest) maximum of 5stacks lasting 30s (5second cooldown on gaining charge). (probably like 600 rating each charge??? dunno)

    4set: every 3rd dragon's fury, your Hot streak, arcane missile, brain freeze proc wont consume the next charge instead it will consume 3 dragon's fury charge
    If that was mage set, id just sit on 2set unless the bonus to stats was pitiful

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •