Patch 5.2 PTR Mage Changes

[Menphis]

Oh, it looked like you were saying "reverting it to 1.3 in 5.2" from your first post.

Sorry, I'm irritable as fuck today apparently .-.;

After replying to you, that came to my mind, that you might be misunderstanding me.
Yes, I have known that hot fix came while back and I was testing it since the hot fix came.
I probably should have said "Reverting CM to 1.3 didn't help much." rather than using "doesn't", which made it sound like it was going to be changed in 5.2.
Sorry about that.

[Deleted]

Imo Invocation for arcane is just plain wrong, you will always come after RoP and even IW. I've tested it on numerous occasions and the best thing you can do with invoc is go 6 stacks and maybe an additional blast depends how lucky you are with AM then Invocate for the first instant tick which gives you 15% instant mana and try to keep it as high as possible. When buff is starting to wear off dont burn your mana like crazy it is still recommended to be at 80%+ and invocate fully.
That is if youre mastery>haste specced, but ofc if youre haste>mastery it can be more forgiving.

[Shangalar]

50% mana with 40 seconds. Now do that with 60 seconds.

Regardless, your Mastery is going to suffer with Invocation, and even moreso with the new change if you're expected to stay above 35% until 60s elapsed.

And with a Haste-oriented gearing strategy, you'll be getting increased passive mana regen, increased regen from a mana gem every two Invocation cycles and increased regen from Invocation itself. Think in 5.2 Haste numbers, not in current haste numbers. We'll be loaded with secondary stats to a degree. Invocation mana regen will not be a problem.

[Imnick]

If only the tooltip for the haste > regen passive was a bit more clear, I'm still not sure if the added regen is meant to be a bonus or merely to compensate for the increased number of spells you will be casting.

[Polarthief]

And with a Haste-oriented gearing strategy, you'll be getting increased passive mana regen, increased regen from a mana gem every two Invocation cycles and increased regen from Invocation itself. Think in 5.2 Haste numbers, not in current haste numbers. We'll be loaded with secondary stats to a degree. Invocation mana regen will not be a problem.

Okay, so the same haste you have the last day of 5.1 will be the haste you have in 5.2. EVENTUALLY it will be okay, but it's a scaling issue now.

We won't magically be given haste just because the patch drops.

[Deleted]

Ok, maybe I am wrong but isn't the change to Invocation a BUFF?

Without haste, right now you have 40s at 25% and 6s cast vs
60s at 15% and 3s cast:

5.1 : 1.25 * 40 / 46 = 1.087 or 8.7% buff
5.2 : 1.15 * 60 / 63 = 1.095 or 9.5% buff

Not to mention it will be easier to keep up and it will be more forgiving if your channeling gets interrupted.

It´s a scaling nerf

125% x 40 / 46 = 108,7%
115% x 60 / 63 = 109,5%

With 20% Haste

125% x 40 / 45 = 111.1%
115% x 60 / 62,5 = 110,4%

With 30% Haste

125% x 40 / 44,6 = 112,1%
115% x 60 / 62,3 = 110,7%

The more haste we get, the worse scales invocation now. RoP has a casttime of 1.5s only. So its the strongest talent now.

[Polarthief]

The more haste we get, the worse scales invocation now. RoP has a casttime of 1.5s only. So its the strongest* talent now.

* if you can stand still, which I'm TOTALLY not willing to do.

[Imnick]

In this tier at least I've honestly found it relatively easy to stay in the rune just by standing on the edge and strafing a bit when necessary.
I certainly don't think I spend more time recasting it than I would invocating even with a reduced cast time, so once the damage numbers are equal I can't see that I'll be using Invocate much unless the mana regeneration nerf really hurts that much.

I honestly feel like it's hard to tell how changes impact Arcane without just playing it, the way mana regen flows is quite hard to predict on paper, you have to feel it.
Scorch weaving just feels satisfying. I don't know if the same will be true when I go back to clearing, although as I love Arcane Barrage maybe it will.

[DreamSpyre]

I won't claim that I'm right, or others are wrong. But think a bit more outside of the box here. I've seen everyone on these forums, including myself at times say that invocation is useless for arcane. How many have tried using it? How many have tried different playstyles, different gearing, different specs? If blatty and others hadn't tested scorch weaving, how many of us would still be crying that mages were dead and we had no spec worth playing?

As we discuss these changes, try to remember a few things that will help keep the discussion positive. First, these are not yet set in stone. Second, the game is more balanced pve wise than it's ever been. I don't think blizzard will ever let us not be competitive.

Now we do the same thing we did when fire was nerfed, we adapt and figure out where to go from there. If arcane damage is lackluster now, they will find a way of changing the numbers. My favorite thing about these notes is that it gives us options. Invocation is suddenly more useful, and far more forgiving. Frost receives a nice buff which will allow it to compete more. Fire had been niched into a cleave spec, and there's nothing really wrong with that. Arcane is going to be forced to play differently than we have been, but that doesn't mean it won't be competitive or any less fun.

Honestly, the only people who have a right to claim the sky is falling are the pvp mages, cause those changes really really suck.

[Deleted]

Combined with the new invocation numbers, frost stays roughly the same. Dunno why they didn´t what was suggested during beta: Invo buff to 117 - 118%, 3s base castime and 60s duration.
They should bring back damage dealing deep freeze. Consuming 1 stack FoF = 150% dmg of ice lance consuming 2 stacks 300%. Fix crit scaling with "Every stat above shatter cap increase your critical strike damage by x % (or maybe just FoF and BF).

[Polarthief]

I won't claim that I'm right, or others are wrong. But think a bit more outside of the box here. I've seen everyone on these forums, including myself at times say that invocation is useless for arcane. How many have tried using it? How many have tried different playstyles, different gearing, different specs? If blatty and others hadn't tested scorch weaving, how many of us would still be crying that mages were dead and we had no spec worth playing?

As we discuss these changes, try to remember a few things that will help keep the discussion positive. First, these are not yet set in stone. Second, the game is more balanced pve wise than it's ever been. I don't think blizzard will ever let us not be competitive.

Now we do the same thing we did when fire was nerfed, we adapt and figure out where to go from there. If arcane damage is lackluster now, they will find a way of changing the numbers. My favorite thing about these notes is that it gives us options. Invocation is suddenly more useful, and far more forgiving. Frost receives a nice buff which will allow it to compete more. Fire had been niched into a cleave spec, and there's nothing really wrong with that. Arcane is going to be forced to play differently than we have been, but that doesn't mean it won't be competitive or any less fun.

Honestly, the only people who have a right to claim the sky is falling are the pvp mages, cause those changes really really suck.

Oh I just refuse to use Arcane altogether if I can help it because I don't enjoy sitting still completely, in addition to being forced to play it all through Cataclysm.

I won't lie, I'm just assuming.

What changes? Blanket silence being nerfed?

[spaace]

* if you can stand still, which I'm TOTALLY not willing to do.

roll a hunter if you don't like to stand and cast.


Just... stop.
like I said before.. Play a mage before you start telling some of the people here who actually do things outside LFR, and post rankings.
You are not forced to play any spec.

[Polarthief]

roll a hunter if you don't like to stand and cast.


Just... stop.
like I said before.. Play a mage before you start telling some of the people here who actually do things outside LFR, and post rankings.
You are not forced to play any spec.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-wmvl5b0quq0451q0/

In case your pretty little eyes can't read well:



Keep talking. You're totally making your point well. I totally do nothing but LFR, right?

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/suramar/CFT

Here's my guild's progression if you'd like it. Hmmm, fully cleared normal and 4/6H in MSV. Totally just doing LFR, amirite? Looking at your progression, oh, you're one heroic kill ahead of me. I guess that means you get to call me a baddie who only does LFR and telling me I don't even know my class, huh?

Check my wow-heroes for the rest of my rankings. Exclude the 200+ because they don't count, but hey, I still have 10 ranks atm above 200, at least one of which is single digit.

Do your fucking research before calling someone out.

Edit: Speaking of rankings, I checked yours on wowheroes. Compared to mine... Lol. Again, do some research next time so you don't make yourself look so bad.

Also, I'm well aware I don't have to play as Rune of Power. Someone simply pointed out that it was the best, and I pointed out it's only the best if you're willing to give up all bits of mobility you have. I never said I felt forced to play with RoP. Please use your eyeballs and read things before attacking people so rudely.


Infracted.

[Imnick]

I didn't know about this WoW-heroes site, I quite like the way it lays out rankings.

[Mr. Casual]

Lol at that deep freeze nerf, CYA MAGES.

lol yea i hate mages more than most but dayum thats pretty brutal, doubt it will go live

[Polarthief]

I didn't know about this WoW-heroes site, I quite like the way it lays out rankings.

Oh Nick, nice rank 3 there!

Yeah it displays it nicely, but thanks for teaching me how to link my actual character

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 01:54 PM ----------

lol yea i hate mages more than most but dayum thats pretty brutal, doubt it will go live

It's already removed from Official notes. It was purely datamined. It could be a boss's ability, y'know.

[Sw1tch]

This is only an overall nerf for frost if you use Invo. I use RoP as a raiding frost mage.

Honestly, I like the idea behind the T90, but they need reworking. RoP should be instant cast with a .5-1 second GCD.

Out of curiosity though, does anyone know what % uptime you need with RoP to pass Invo in terms of damage (for this PTR)?

Side Note: Locks got green fire, I want a new and customizable water elemental skins. At least update the model with graphics from this century.

[Stache]

Hmm, I liked scorch weaving because it allowed a little movement in heroic encounters. It was nice to be able to drop two runes of power and swap back and fourth when you needed to cast scorch (Think Heroic Sha, P1). If anything, scorch weaving was a small band aid for the piss-poor performance arcane has on the move, and I'll miss it dearly.

The rune of power nerf seems odd to me though. Are they trying to align it more closely to invocation for arcane? Because of mastery I can't really see anything but RoP being optimal, but I guess time will tell if these buffs make it live. At least we have fair warning with the PTR and these changes aren't coming in as a mid week "hotfix".

[Polarthief]

This is only an overall nerf for frost if you use Invo. I use RoP as a raiding frost mage.

Source/Math calculations?

Please don't make such assumptions, unless you actually say you're assuming it's a nerf, without a source/calculations.

I will however admit, and it should be obvious to anyone, it's automatically a 10% nerf for the first 40 seconds of every fight (but a buff purely to your Frostbolts, which shouldn't be too prioritized until later)

Honestly, I like the idea behind the L90, but they need reworking. RoP should be instant cast with a .5-1 second GCD.

Out of curiosity though, does anyone know what % uptime you need with RoP to pass Invo in terms of damage (for this PTR)?

Side Note: Locks got green fire, I want a new and customizable water elemental skins. At least update the model with graphics from this century.

Totally agree on the RoP being instant. Would fix it so much.

I want blue flames for Fire now. Why can't we use blue heat?

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 01:57 PM ----------

Hmm, I liked scorch weaving because it allowed a little movement in heroic encounters. It was nice to be able to drop two runes of power and swap back and fourth when you needed to cast scorch (Think Heroic Sha, P1). If anything, scorch weaving was a small band aid for the piss-poor performance arcane has on the move, and I'll miss it dearly.

The rune of power nerf seems odd to me though. Are they trying to align it more closely to invocation for arcane? Because of mastery I can't really see anything but RoP being optimal, but I guess time will tell if these buffs make it live. At least we have fair warning with the PTR and these changes aren't coming in as a mid week "hotfix".

It was a cheating mechanic though, similar to using PoM/AT for your Combustion, and thus, it was nerfed (or rather, the cooldown itself was nerfed, which was bullshit).

I'd imagine they're nerfing RoP due to the extra Haste we'll be getting in the next tier. Remember, more haste = more MP5, and they scale with each other (1% Haste = 1% more MP5)

[mrgreenthump]

It was a cheating mechanic though, similar to using PoM/AT for your Combustion, and thus, it was nerfed (or rather, the cooldown itself was nerfed, which was bullshit).

I'd imagine they're nerfing RoP due to the extra Haste we'll be getting in the next tier. Remember, more haste = more MP5, and they scale with each other (1% Haste = 1% more MP5)

Better hope that there aint a haste proc trinket then, cause we are allready reaching haste hard cap now with hero..

Plus Pom/AT pyro werent nerfed.. they nerfed combustion and CM..


Oh and now that they did this nerf.. Mastery> haste so with us having around 10k haste rating atm.. and frost armor, we will loose a lot of haste, and that in turn means that we have a lot less mana regen than before, but sure those mages that were allready stacking mastery might see the same mana regen numbers at the end of 5.2, but that doesnt really never make up for the arcane blast mana cost nerf