1. #2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumble View Post
    If Blizzard are so hellbent on us using pets, maybe they should take a look at why a lot of us DONT want to use pets. i.e. They're bloody useless with a horrible AI.
    I've rarely had issues with pets this tier outside of heroic protectors? Then again, I haven't used the pets too much this tier. In regards to "useless", the dps from an imps firebolt alone is around the 16-17k mark in my current ilvl. The serviced imp is hitting 24k dps over it's duration. The difference is not that much.

  2. #2002
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Blizzard have said several times they think all Warlocks should be using pets. Ghostcrawler even suggested that GoSac should be a DPS loss and has openly disparaged it on numerous occasions.

    It is Blizzard's design intent that Warlocks are pet classes and so are supposed to be using pets, not Sacrificing them for convinence. It's not so much the players that want to use pets (although that is part of the issue), but it's mainly Blizzard who want us to use pets.

    They don't want to make Sacrifice "useless" persay, but they DO want to make it something that you very rarely choose, if ever - that involves making it a worse talent than Supremacy and Service, effectively making it "useless".

    Put simply: Blizzard don't like Grimoire of Sacrifice and they want it to go away.
    I don't think they want it to go away but they want it to be rare. Imho they want it to be used in 2 instances.
    1) Bugged fight like elegon (i.e. their programming is broken so at least we get some compensation for them making our pets useless)
    2) People who flat out do not like pets and are willing to lose dps in every situation. I would be willing to bet that if GC could tune it perfectly it would always be only a slight dps decrease - say 5% less than the optimal choice so a casual can use it without too much grief but that it never maths out to be optimal.

  3. #2003
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumble View Post
    If Blizzard are so hellbent on us using pets, maybe they should take a look at why a lot of us DONT want to use pets. i.e. They're bloody useless with a horrible AI.
    There's no 100% evidence either way, but it's safe to say most of us have complained about our pets at some point, BUT we have also still played our class, so I don't think people just played Sacrifice to be rid of the pet. They (we!) played it cause the DPS was higher, and the fact it was petless was only the cherrie on the cake.

    Now that Blizz is forcing us back to pets we get confronted with those pet issues again. I think the problem people have with pets is 1) lack of control i.e. it will sometimes not do what we want, or do waht we don't want it to do. 2) environment problems 3) damage problems in the sense of buffs not transferring to our pet ( the new fight with all the weird buffs and transforming is most likely going to be a good example of that)

    I think it's unrealistic to expect all those problems to never exist again. For good or for bad it's part of our class as long as we have pets. I think though Blizz will (or should more like) balance the Sacrifice option so that it would perform better then using either other Grimoire when our pets let us down. If that's the case then I'm satisfied, cause the talent will then have a clear function and upside.

  4. #2004
    I wonder how quick changes will be implemented when pet problems crop up. Or will we get the deaf ear again?

  5. #2005
    they could make sacrifice a burst aoe talent, something like service. making the sacrifice only temporary.

  6. #2006
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post

    Now that Blizz is forcing us back to pets we get confronted with those pet issues again. I think the problem people have with pets is 1) lack of control i.e. it will sometimes not do what we want, or do waht we don't want it to do. 2) environment problems 3) damage problems in the sense of buffs not transferring to our pet ( the new fight with all the weird buffs and transforming is most likely going to be a good example of that)
    What destro and aff need is a form of demonic rebirth that demo is privy to. After doing all the challenge modes again as demo and losing my fg a few times on aoe packs, I was making use of that quite a bit. A shard is a tad harsh of a penalty for unavoidable damage that kills the pet though (assuming they aren't fixed in the release build). Also, the armor and hp could be increased for the pets outside of the fg to make sac more attractive / surv boosted in lieu of the fel armor change.

  7. #2007
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    just add an option to the pet so that you "bind" to another CAC player then make it to follow the path the player follows (adjusting speed accordingly) so the pet reproduce the target attacks and movement of another player .. !

    anyway, anyone know when simC release officially the sims ?

  8. #2008
    Quote Originally Posted by yalin View Post
    they could make sacrifice a burst aoe talent, something like service. making the sacrifice only temporary.
    But then what's the use of the talent? Fights where your pet is only a temporary liability? "This is when the little bugger keeps targeting the mob that will wipe the raid if touched!" Could happen I suppose.

    I'd rather just see it balanced as is.

  9. #2009
    My PoV (long time Rogue, only recently converted to Warlock but had once an adventure in PvP during BC):

    Pets have buggy AI and isn't anymore fun to play with than not having them. I'd actually be OK playing with one had it not so many issues (pet travelling time, getting stuck, not attacking, dying stupidly, etc.) I might be the only one on this side of the argument, but I don't find it fun to have to micromanage my pet.

    It sure looks like it's "hard" work to manage the pet, but so is managing better MG/DS uptimes. I realize they had to nerf it cause it was out of hands, but I disagree strongly with them nerfing it to oblivion. The pet shouldn't be the only defining criteria of the Warlock class, and it sure isn't a mere Shadow Priest or Fire Mage when the Warlock sacs its pet. The unique resources system is, to me, the defining criteria of the class.

    On a side note, I despise with the greatest hatred the Supremacy demons: the Wrathgard is ridiculous (and so are its tiny teensy weapons), Shivarra is seriously not as cool as the Succubus, the Fel Imp actually looks like the regular Imp so that's OK, the Observer is actually cool looking but again so is the Felhunter (who wouldn't want to have an army of WoW-zergling at his sides?!).

    I feel like it'd be much better if all our pets (aside the Felguard/Wrathguard) were more or less ranged (still doing great, albeit lesser DPS while on the move), if the devs had fixed the few issues (pet pathing, pet not benefiting from various encounters's buffs and debuffs) and offered us with a minor glyph to keep the demons's regular appearance. Affli with Felhunter (w/ GSup & minor glyph) would kick ass if it had semi-ranged attacks.

    Scaling with Mastery should be considered, too. It shouldn't be as good as Demono's scaling, but still. That's the one area where a Warlock scales the worst since Mastery was introduced.
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  10. #2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzyo View Post
    I've rarely had issues with pets this tier outside of heroic protectors? Then again, I haven't used the pets too much this tier. In regards to "useless", the dps from an imps firebolt alone is around the 16-17k mark in my current ilvl. The serviced imp is hitting 24k dps over it's duration. The difference is not that much.
    Tried pets a bit to get "prepared" for 5.1 (even though I'll prolly go Demo or stick to GoSac because the difference doesnt seem THAT major), and from my experience there are some wierd things going on.

    They despawn randomly or glitch out on Sha, they dont work very well on Elegon, they die quite randomly on Vizier hc during attenuation (our hunters also complained about this, only way to stop it was to set pet on passive), they also sometimes die on Feng hc during the earthquake, why that is I'm not exactly sure and it's only happened once, but still! They dont seem to work very well on HC Protectors either, and on WotE HC unless you use an imp they spend most of their time running to and fro between things you want to DPS. (One way around this is ofc to set pet on passive and have it attacking one of the bosses full time, but when you want to DPS an add then it becomes a bit lame).

    So yeah, seems they're not the greatest on quite a few of the current fights, hence the convenience offered by GoSac is quite nifty (and it gives more DPS so win/win really).

  11. #2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Nryka View Post
    and offered us with a minor glyph to keep the demons's regular appearance.
    WTB, I personally hate the Wrathguard compared to the Felguard. I do like Void Lord \ Observer though. Wouldn't be a bad minor glyph option IMO.

  12. #2012
    Okay so I have a question for the affi locks that were testing H PTR yesterday. How were we pairing up against demo? And we're you using GoSac or GoSup?

    Also, anyone else think we may be going for much more haste if we use GoSup?

  13. #2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumble View Post
    Tried pets a bit to get "prepared" for 5.1 (even though I'll prolly go Demo or stick to GoSac because the difference doesnt seem THAT major), and from my experience there are some wierd things going on.

    They despawn randomly or glitch out on Sha, they dont work very well on Elegon, they die quite randomly on Vizier hc during attenuation (our hunters also complained about this, only way to stop it was to set pet on passive), they also sometimes die on Feng hc during the earthquake, why that is I'm not exactly sure and it's only happened once, but still! They dont seem to work very well on HC Protectors either, and on WotE HC unless you use an imp they spend most of their time running to and fro between things you want to DPS. (One way around this is ofc to set pet on passive and have it attacking one of the bosses full time, but when you want to DPS an add then it becomes a bit lame).

    So yeah, seems they're not the greatest on quite a few of the current fights, hence the convenience offered by GoSac is quite nifty (and it gives more DPS so win/win really).
    Vizier it's because they get to the boss before your tank, and as the boss is fixed they are on the receiving end of the first melee swings, it's easily enough managed by paying attention and making sure your pet switches to the echo rather than following the boss between platforms. Same can happen on Elegon if the tank switch is sloppy, but that's as bad for any melee as it is your pet. Never had an issue on Sha or Feng.

    But again, what sense does it make to double the punishment of using pets with low DPS and inconvenience?

    And damn, have people really forgotten how to manage pets already? I dread to think what would happen if KJC got nerfed and Affliction Warlocks were expected to use Fel Flame on the move again...
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-02-28 at 04:26 PM.

  14. #2014
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Yeah, it is insane to pick a pet class, then whine about having a pet. It's also insane that the same people who whined about GC commenting on the complexity of certain specs, are then DEMANDING that the easier, better QoL talent option for their own spec be the 'go to' choice.
    I don't know how long you've been paying attention to Warlocks, but here's the part you and Ghostcrawler seem to be missing. Warlocks are a class with pets; not a pet class by definition. Demonology is a spec with heavy focus on pets. Affliction is DoTs and curses. Destruction is well... destructive.

    The first two releases of the game (Vanilla and BC) had the ability to sacrifice pets for a DPS gain, which was balanced against having a pet so that it wasn't just a DPS increase. It was removed for a time (Wrath and Cata, I believe) and is now an option again. Blizzard tipped the scales a bit, too far in favor of sacrifice, and does need to make adjustments. What they do not need to do is pigeon hole everyone back into using a pet because it fits with a notion at odds with available mechanics.

    No one should be demanding that GoSac should be the go-to option. It should, however, be an option without choosing to hug the healers on the damage meter.
    Both you and Ghostcrawler need to stop forcing your vision of "pets for all or gtfo" upon the rest of us.

    This thread should be about balance, not your vision of the class. The rest of us are content to allow pets to do competitive DPS. Pony up or shut up, IMO.

    Edit:
    My apologies to the moderator(s). I was a couple pages behind when the post was made. Discussion will return to numbers.
    Last edited by Taira; 2013-02-28 at 05:32 PM.

  15. #2015
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Same can happen on Elegon if the tank switch is sloppy, but that's as bad for any melee as it is your pet.
    I think he is referring to H Elegon, where the LoS mechanic really messes with the pet AI. My doomguard often doesn't even attack once when I summon him.

  16. #2016
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Except I read through this thread, on twitter, on the official forums, that the #1 reason people don't want to use their pet is because it is HARD, because it requires MANAGEMENT. They like Sac because it's efficient. Never does anyone say it because of wanting the challenge.
    From what I'm gathering, people are saying there are mechanics that are bugged with a pet, which doesn't make it harder or more challenging, but more frustrating, because you have no control over it when it happens (LoS on Elegon, not getting damage buff on Protectors, etc.).

    Otherwise, say if GoSup and GoSac are equal, it should be like this:

    With GoSup, you do 100k, and your pets do 20k for a total of 120k damage.
    With GoSac, you do 120k, and your pets do 0 for a total of 120k damage.

    Sounds fair, right? But what if you don't execute your rotation perfectly, and only do 80% of that damage (lag issues, movement, used cooldown at wrong point, etc.):

    With GoSup, you do 80k, and your pets do 20k for a total of 100k damage.
    With GoSac, you do 96k, and your pets do 0 for a total of 96k damage.

    GoSac is only efficient in cases where the fight has mechanics that dramatically improves the damage of the player, but not the pet. This can be fights with damage buffs or multiple targets, which is basically every fights these days... which is why we're seeing these nerf. It's not because GoSac is easier to play.

  17. #2017
    The Patient Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    WTB, I personally hate the Wrathguard compared to the Felguard. I do like Void Lord \ Observer though. Wouldn't be a bad minor glyph option IMO.
    I guess seeing the normal Felguard model for so many years has me liking something new more (at least for now). The only thing i'm kind of miffed about is the Offhand Wrathguard bug where randomly its offhand will just go away. I xmoged his weapons for a reason damnit!

    Main:Paarthurnax | Alt:Peijing | <Huge in Japan> 14/14H US#16
    “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.”
    --Littlefinger

  18. #2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathgar View Post
    The only thing i'm kind of miffed about is the Offhand Wrathguard bug where randomly its offhand will just go away. I xmoged his weapons for a reason damnit!
    Ran into that while Demo past few days. Kinda sad to see him standing there with just 1 weapon in his hand looking glum.

  19. #2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post

    But again, what sense does it make to double the punishment of using pets with low DPS and inconvenience?

    And damn, have people really forgotten how to manage pets already? I dread to think what would happen if KJC got nerfed and Affliction Warlocks were expected to use Fel Flame on the move again...
    So is managing a pet because of terrible AI, pathing issues and bugging a lot of the time compelling gameplay?? No its just goddam frustrating!!

    I rolled a lock, because it was a pet class. I loved running with a pet as it brought that extra dimension to the class and great utility in the pvp environment. But over the years expansion after expansion and as raid fight mechanics steadly got more complicated the pet design system seems to have not kept up, yes they got avoidance which has helped massivley for aoe damage but the actual real issues like pathing, target switching, health pools and AI haven't changed at all.

    Enter Cataclysm and fights like Alysrazor and Deathwing to name two of the worst and a lot of people had had enough. I for one switched class, granted not just because of the frustrating pet issues but it did play a part. Now take all those pissed off locks who remember all the years of mongo pet behaviour and offer them a way to not have to put up with it and buff their damage in lieu of the pet and is it any wonder than GoSac is so popular???

    Yes blizzard wants us to use pets, but it also wants to cater to the players who want to sacrifice their pet for power, it fits with the lore, the problem is that the AI. If both talents in a vacuum produced exactly the same dps i would hazard a guess that the majority would run with GoSac purely for not having to put up with the AI, leaving pet lovers who are only being punished because of the AI itself, so by that logic the only way to make us use pets is the nerf the shit out of GoSac to the point where its such a loss were forced to not choose it. If they are going to do that they should just straight out delete the talent and draw a line in the sand.

    People who pick GoSup because they want to run with a pet should not be punished with lower dps, all the talents should be within an acceptable % margin, however they are punished with having to put up with the terrible AI which will in a lot of instances cause them to under perform to a GoSac lock because its a passive damage buff.

    Conclusion: If both talents produce the same dps in sims, the majority with go with GoSac because of the pet AI; therefore fix the pet AI then the people who want to use a pet can do so without a dps loss and the people who don't want to use a pet can do so for whatever goddam reason they want as it wont matter you wont do anymore damage.

  20. #2020
    I really can't see the issue with having a pet, I LOVE GoSac, and I also didn't play cata so I didn't get to experience buggy boss fights.
    Last time I had a pet was simply imp sitting on the boss, giving me free crits every so often in Wotlk, My only complaint was when stuns were up and my imp was still attacking the boss, lowering my dps but keeping my damage high (I like big dps numbers)

    I just don't want to be shoehorned into playing demo is it has an advantage over affi, cycling through countless targets, applying corr/doom is really vile part of AoE mechanics.

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