1) Bugged fight like elegon (i.e. their programming is broken so at least we get some compensation for them making our pets useless)
2) People who flat out do not like pets and are willing to lose dps in every situation. I would be willing to bet that if GC could tune it perfectly it would always be only a slight dps decrease - say 5% less than the optimal choice so a casual can use it without too much grief but that it never maths out to be optimal.
Now that Blizz is forcing us back to pets we get confronted with those pet issues again. I think the problem people have with pets is 1) lack of control i.e. it will sometimes not do what we want, or do waht we don't want it to do. 2) environment problems 3) damage problems in the sense of buffs not transferring to our pet ( the new fight with all the weird buffs and transforming is most likely going to be a good example of that)
I think it's unrealistic to expect all those problems to never exist again. For good or for bad it's part of our class as long as we have pets. I think though Blizz will (or should more like) balance the Sacrifice option so that it would perform better then using either other Grimoire when our pets let us down. If that's the case then I'm satisfied, cause the talent will then have a clear function and upside.
I wonder how quick changes will be implemented when pet problems crop up. Or will we get the deaf ear again?
they could make sacrifice a burst aoe talent, something like service. making the sacrifice only temporary.
just add an option to the pet so that you "bind" to another CAC player then make it to follow the path the player follows (adjusting speed accordingly) so the pet reproduce the target attacks and movement of another player .. !
anyway, anyone know when simC release officially the sims ?
My PoV (long time Rogue, only recently converted to Warlock but had once an adventure in PvP during BC):
Pets have buggy AI and isn't anymore fun to play with than not having them. I'd actually be OK playing with one had it not so many issues (pet travelling time, getting stuck, not attacking, dying stupidly, etc.) I might be the only one on this side of the argument, but I don't find it fun to have to micromanage my pet.
It sure looks like it's "hard" work to manage the pet, but so is managing better MG/DS uptimes. I realize they had to nerf it cause it was out of hands, but I disagree strongly with them nerfing it to oblivion. The pet shouldn't be the only defining criteria of the Warlock class, and it sure isn't a mere Shadow Priest or Fire Mage when the Warlock sacs its pet. The unique resources system is, to me, the defining criteria of the class.
On a side note, I despise with the greatest hatred the Supremacy demons: the Wrathgard is ridiculous (and so are its tiny teensy weapons), Shivarra is seriously not as cool as the Succubus, the Fel Imp actually looks like the regular Imp so that's OK, the Observer is actually cool looking but again so is the Felhunter (who wouldn't want to have an army of WoW-zergling at his sides?!).
I feel like it'd be much better if all our pets (aside the Felguard/Wrathguard) were more or less ranged (still doing great, albeit lesser DPS while on the move), if the devs had fixed the few issues (pet pathing, pet not benefiting from various encounters's buffs and debuffs) and offered us with a minor glyph to keep the demons's regular appearance. Affli with Felhunter (w/ GSup & minor glyph) would kick ass if it had semi-ranged attacks.
Scaling with Mastery should be considered, too. It shouldn't be as good as Demono's scaling, but still. That's the one area where a Warlock scales the worst since Mastery was introduced.
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They despawn randomly or glitch out on Sha, they dont work very well on Elegon, they die quite randomly on Vizier hc during attenuation (our hunters also complained about this, only way to stop it was to set pet on passive), they also sometimes die on Feng hc during the earthquake, why that is I'm not exactly sure and it's only happened once, but still! They dont seem to work very well on HC Protectors either, and on WotE HC unless you use an imp they spend most of their time running to and fro between things you want to DPS. (One way around this is ofc to set pet on passive and have it attacking one of the bosses full time, but when you want to DPS an add then it becomes a bit lame).
So yeah, seems they're not the greatest on quite a few of the current fights, hence the convenience offered by GoSac is quite nifty (and it gives more DPS so win/win really).
Okay so I have a question for the affi locks that were testing H PTR yesterday. How were we pairing up against demo? And we're you using GoSac or GoSup?
Also, anyone else think we may be going for much more haste if we use GoSup?
But again, what sense does it make to double the punishment of using pets with low DPS and inconvenience?
And damn, have people really forgotten how to manage pets already? I dread to think what would happen if KJC got nerfed and Affliction Warlocks were expected to use Fel Flame on the move again...
The first two releases of the game (Vanilla and BC) had the ability to sacrifice pets for a DPS gain, which was balanced against having a pet so that it wasn't just a DPS increase. It was removed for a time (Wrath and Cata, I believe) and is now an option again. Blizzard tipped the scales a bit, too far in favor of sacrifice, and does need to make adjustments. What they do not need to do is pigeon hole everyone back into using a pet because it fits with a notion at odds with available mechanics.
No one should be demanding that GoSac should be the go-to option. It should, however, be an option without choosing to hug the healers on the damage meter.
Both you and Ghostcrawler need to stop forcing your vision of "pets for all or gtfo" upon the rest of us.
This thread should be about balance, not your vision of the class. The rest of us are content to allow pets to do competitive DPS. Pony up or shut up, IMO.
My apologies to the moderator(s). I was a couple pages behind when the post was made. Discussion will return to numbers.
Last edited by Taira; 2013-02-28 at 05:32 PM.
Otherwise, say if GoSup and GoSac are equal, it should be like this:
With GoSup, you do 100k, and your pets do 20k for a total of 120k damage.
With GoSac, you do 120k, and your pets do 0 for a total of 120k damage.
Sounds fair, right? But what if you don't execute your rotation perfectly, and only do 80% of that damage (lag issues, movement, used cooldown at wrong point, etc.):
With GoSup, you do 80k, and your pets do 20k for a total of 100k damage.
With GoSac, you do 96k, and your pets do 0 for a total of 96k damage.
GoSac is only efficient in cases where the fight has mechanics that dramatically improves the damage of the player, but not the pet. This can be fights with damage buffs or multiple targets, which is basically every fights these days... which is why we're seeing these nerf. It's not because GoSac is easier to play.
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I rolled a lock, because it was a pet class. I loved running with a pet as it brought that extra dimension to the class and great utility in the pvp environment. But over the years expansion after expansion and as raid fight mechanics steadly got more complicated the pet design system seems to have not kept up, yes they got avoidance which has helped massivley for aoe damage but the actual real issues like pathing, target switching, health pools and AI haven't changed at all.
Enter Cataclysm and fights like Alysrazor and Deathwing to name two of the worst and a lot of people had had enough. I for one switched class, granted not just because of the frustrating pet issues but it did play a part. Now take all those pissed off locks who remember all the years of mongo pet behaviour and offer them a way to not have to put up with it and buff their damage in lieu of the pet and is it any wonder than GoSac is so popular???
Yes blizzard wants us to use pets, but it also wants to cater to the players who want to sacrifice their pet for power, it fits with the lore, the problem is that the AI. If both talents in a vacuum produced exactly the same dps i would hazard a guess that the majority would run with GoSac purely for not having to put up with the AI, leaving pet lovers who are only being punished because of the AI itself, so by that logic the only way to make us use pets is the nerf the shit out of GoSac to the point where its such a loss were forced to not choose it. If they are going to do that they should just straight out delete the talent and draw a line in the sand.
People who pick GoSup because they want to run with a pet should not be punished with lower dps, all the talents should be within an acceptable % margin, however they are punished with having to put up with the terrible AI which will in a lot of instances cause them to under perform to a GoSac lock because its a passive damage buff.
Conclusion: If both talents produce the same dps in sims, the majority with go with GoSac because of the pet AI; therefore fix the pet AI then the people who want to use a pet can do so without a dps loss and the people who don't want to use a pet can do so for whatever goddam reason they want as it wont matter you wont do anymore damage.
I really can't see the issue with having a pet, I LOVE GoSac, and I also didn't play cata so I didn't get to experience buggy boss fights.
Last time I had a pet was simply imp sitting on the boss, giving me free crits every so often in Wotlk, My only complaint was when stuns were up and my imp was still attacking the boss, lowering my dps but keeping my damage high (I like big dps numbers)
I just don't want to be shoehorned into playing demo is it has an advantage over affi, cycling through countless targets, applying corr/doom is really vile part of AoE mechanics.