1. #2261
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Be careful, grumpy PvP'ers might get upset and tell you KJC is the only thing making Warlocks viable in arenas. We can't question terrible design with the risk of one more season not dominated by Warlock comps.
    We're already screwed with the loss of Blood Fear (although needed) without any real compensation. What is there more to lose? Although a smart move would be you know, to buff warlocks in a proper way without putting in cheesy mechanics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  2. #2262
    Quote Originally Posted by Gohzerlock View Post
    Why hate on KJC? It makes the game more dynamic, is it overpowered... maybe. Perhaps it should work with filler only and no snare?
    If it was a mana cost increase to your spells as opposed to a snare it would work better I think. Keep its curent form as a debuff so if you stutter move you get lumped with the debuff for longer than you'd want. Make it more of a 'I NEED to be able to move and do dps' as opposed to 'lol i can move and dps' and the mana penalty if properly balanced would lead to a lot more lifetapping if you use it inappropriately. Its the only concievable way I could see it being balanced tbh. Well you could have it working similar to burning rush, move and lose hp, but i'd just prefer a mana drain personally.

  3. #2263
    Quote Originally Posted by Biruta View Post
    I completely disagree and go further: I think all (I said ALL) classes should cast while walking. The game would be much more versatile and dynamic.
    Yes and the next person will ask for casting without direct facing line of sight, because turning around sucks and not having it is a better change for the game. Then casting will be too much of a hurdle because honestly, who wants to WAIT for an ability to activate? Go, go instants! Plus if you give that much mobility to casters then you increase that of melee, and we end up with the same arm race that we have right now with CC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  4. #2264
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Yes and the next person will ask for casting without direct facing line of sight, because turning around sucks and not having it is a better change for the game. Then casting will be too much of a hurdle because honestly, who wants to WAIT for an ability to activate? Go, go instants! Plus if you give that much mobility to casters then you increase that of melee, and we end up with the same arm race that we have right now with CC.
    I think you were a little too far in your ramblings... nobody ever conjectured that, you're speculating a lot and for no reason. I'd really like to see all classes moving while casting spells and smaller casting time. GW2 is a fantastic example; unfortunate that ArenaNet has not exploited the full potential of the game. But Blizzard can do it with WOW. Good stuff from other games can and should be exploited and trash discarded.

    Going back to my question: why they nerfed Fel Flame and Shadowburn? Give me one good reason and I shut up.
    Ghostcrawler is gone, time to celebrate!

  5. #2265
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    I'm a little unnerved by Ghostcrawler's tweet on Sacrifice. This was in response to someone suggesting GoSac should equal pet damage:



    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...47553145614339

    So it seems I was right about what I posted earlier; they want to make Sacrifice unviable for serious raids/PVP in all but the most niche encounters. I'd rather they just remove it to be honest, and I expect they will next expansion.

    Lets be honest here, Sacrifice is just a bad idea and there's no way to balance it properly.
    Why? if you're looking at it that way pets weren't viable for affliction in T14. Nobody seemed to cry about that. He's right. Sac is a big convenience since you don't have a pet to manage. So there should be a cost for that convenience. Kind of like the glyph of everlasting affliction. We get new pets, and nobody really uses them outside of demo and pvp.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  6. #2266
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Yes and the next person will ask for casting without direct facing line of sight, because turning around sucks and not having it is a better change for the game. Then casting will be too much of a hurdle because honestly, who wants to WAIT for an ability to activate? Go, go instants! Plus if you give that much mobility to casters then you increase that of melee, and we end up with the same arm race that we have right now with CC.
    Do you think uninterupptable instant cast spells are fine to use while moving? All castable spells while moving today does is give you bit more damage and utility while making you vulnerable to interuppts. You could make a lot of instants have a cast time if everyone could cast and move and perhaps decrease range in pvp or something.

    I don't really care either way personally, but I don't see how it would be so terrible with a bit of design rework (other than losing some of the cast/instant/movement contrast, which I really like, and there would have to be some new interesting mechanic for casters in PVE to pay attention to if maximizing movement will be gone)
    Last edited by Micke; 2013-03-03 at 03:03 AM.

  7. #2267
    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    Why? if you're looking at it that way pets weren't viable for affliction in T14. Nobody seemed to cry about that. He's right. Sac is a big convenience since you don't have a pet to manage. So there should be a cost for that convenience. Kind of like the glyph of everlasting affliction. We get new pets, and nobody really uses them outside of demo and pvp.
    If Sacrifice is supposed to be punished for making life easier for Warlocks, it should be punished at a comparable rate to what you're gaining.....which is to say it should barely be punished at all.

    It's not hard to bind your pet attacks and if someone can't manage that there's always the assist function. Pet management isn't rocket science. Why is it suddenly being treated this way?
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2013-03-03 at 03:14 AM.

  8. #2268
    Quote Originally Posted by Biruta View Post
    Please read what GC wrote and what I wrote.
    he said he was nerfing GoSac to prevent it being a mandatory talent. So what the hell does that have to do with nerfing fel flame and shadowburn??
    It makes no sense ...
    Read before you write something is a good way to be polite.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-02 at 11:32 PM ----------



    I completely disagree and go further: I think all (I said ALL) classes should cast while walking. The game would be much more versatile and dynamic.
    How were FF and SB nerfed, you mean they benefited from GoSac which was nerfed? If so, then ok, what's the big problem? Or was it a stealth nerf or one I missed? And if you mean the proposed SB fix to make it not generate an extra ember, they said they would not fix that, though admittedly it doesn't generate an extra one on the PTR. Ultimately, I thought we were mainly discussing the nerf to GoSac, which was done to make it more of a niche talent, definitely not mandatory anymore. I don't see what a FF and SB nerf has to do with that.

    It's the fault of the nature of the playerbase that we try to make cookie-cutter specs. GoSac no longer giving highest theoretical DPS? So it's useless and we're saddled with pathetic pet AI, GG FOR KILLING US BLIZZ!

  9. #2269
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    If Sacrifice is supposed to be punished for making life easier for Warlocks, it should be punished at a comparable rate to what you're gaining.....which is to say it should barely be punished at all.

    It's not hard to bind your pet attacks and if someone can't manage that there's always the assist function. Pet management isn't rocket science. Why is it suddenly being treated this way?

    Ultimate Solution to all our problems:
    If GC thinks GoSac is too strong and wants us to use pets, then give us the Imp as the strongest pet.

    • ranged attacks mean not having to deal with pets having trouble finding a path or being useless in some fights (like elegon)
    • no dps loss when a lot of target switching is involved. why? because he's ranged!
    • no complicated pet handling, since he's always right next to you and attacking using what? exactly! ranged attacks!
    Last edited by spookyy; 2013-03-03 at 03:55 AM.

  10. #2270
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    If Sacrifice is supposed to be punished for making life easier for Warlocks, it should be punished at a comparable rate to what you're gaining.....which is to say it should barely be punished at all.

    It's not hard to bind your pet attacks and if someone can't manage that there's always the assist function. Pet management isn't rocket science. Why is it suddenly being treated this way?
    I agree with you I mean mages have a pet spec, it doesn't mean their other specs are gimped/penalized because they aren't micro managing something else. I don't really understand this logic, I guess all pet classes/specs should do more dps then every non pet class/spec? Should a demo lock do more dps than a hunter because they have to manage a pet mana AND fury, whereas a hunter manages just a pet and focus?

    It's really too bad something like imp swarm wasn't used in place of sac.
    Last edited by Gohzerlock; 2013-03-03 at 04:15 AM.

  11. #2271
    Quote Originally Posted by Gohzerlock View Post
    Should a demo lock do more dps than a hunter because they have to manage a pet mana AND fury, whereas a hunter manages just a pet and focus?
    This is a really good point but unfortunately I think the tweet about having more to manage justifying greater output is just Greg talking out his ass (something every corporate mouthpiece has to be good at). Someone should tweet that to him. The Demo part, not the ass part.

  12. #2272
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    How were FF and SB nerfed, you mean they benefited from GoSac which was nerfed? If so, then ok, what's the big problem? Or was it a stealth nerf or one I missed? And if you mean the proposed SB fix to make it not generate an extra ember, they said they would not fix that, though admittedly it doesn't generate an extra one on the PTR. Ultimately, I thought we were mainly discussing the nerf to GoSac, which was done to make it more of a niche talent, definitely not mandatory anymore. I don't see what a FF and SB nerf has to do with that.

    It's the fault of the nature of the playerbase that we try to make cookie-cutter specs. GoSac no longer giving highest theoretical DPS? So it's useless and we're saddled with pathetic pet AI, GG FOR KILLING US BLIZZ!
    nerf GoSac = nerf fel flame and shadowburn too, because they benefited from GoSac (obvious)
    But why did they nerf them? Why these spells were not buffed like incinerate and confflagrate?
    I believe they have not realized this mistake and soon they will buff both.
    Ghostcrawler is gone, time to celebrate!

  13. #2273
    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    Why? if you're looking at it that way pets weren't viable for affliction in T14. Nobody seemed to cry about that. He's right. Sac is a big convenience since you don't have a pet to manage. So there should be a cost for that convenience. Kind of like the glyph of everlasting affliction. We get new pets, and nobody really uses them outside of demo and pvp.
    Well, in reality nobody's going to take a talent that causes them to do less damage in exchange for a minor convenience. If Sacrifice is always going to be a DPS loss then I don't think it should be a talent at all. With that kind of philosophy at best it should be a major glyph.

  14. #2274
    Quote Originally Posted by Biruta View Post
    nerf GoSac = nerf fel flame and shadowburn too, because they benefited from GoSac (obvious)
    But why did they nerf them? Why these spells were not buffed like incinerate and confflagrate?
    I believe they have not realized this mistake and soon they will buff both.
    Ok, well perhaps they felt Shadowburn did enough damage, especially also with their intent to keep it as is with generating an extra ember for a kill. Fel Flame isn't intended to be high on damage I believe. The incinerate and conflagrate buffs seemed to be in response to the demand to boost Destro's PVE capabilities, not to directly offset the GoSac nerfs. A nerf to GoSac doesn't mean they need to buff every ability that was nerfed by GoSac, as the nerf was simply targeted at making the other talents more attractive.

    Well, in reality nobody's going to take a talent that causes them to do less damage in exchange for a minor convenience. If Sacrifice is always going to be a DPS loss then I don't think it should be a talent at all. With that kind of philosophy at best it should be a major glyph.
    While this may be true, there will be more opportunities to use GoSac than, say, the Glyph of Everlasting Affliction. GoSac will still be very useful for fights that just aren't pet-friendly, where the AI gets it killed or pets don't get some sort of damage buff. And I don't believe (could be wrong) that Sac's been nerfed to the point where it's downright useless. But either way, I don't think you can argue against their point that it was more convenience AND higher DPS for that talent.

  15. #2275
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    While this may be true, there will be more opportunities to use GoSac than, say, the Glyph of Everlasting Affliction. GoSac will still be very useful for fights that just aren't pet-friendly, where the AI gets it killed or pets don't get some sort of damage buff. And I don't believe (could be wrong) that Sac's been nerfed to the point where it's downright useless. But either way, I don't think you can argue against their point that it was more convenience AND higher DPS for that talent.
    I agree, but I just don't feel that a talent should be merely a "minor convenience" saved for the occasional fight that doesn't favour pets. That's what glyphs are for. Talents are supposed to be more powerful and useful than that.

  16. #2276
    Here's the dilemma I'm sure the Devs are facing. Ideally, you make pet vs no-pet a DPS neutral choice so that people can pick the style they prefer. Only, what standard of "DPS neutral" do you use?

    As has been pointed out by everyone, a pet has certain built in inefficiencies. It doesn't scale as well with Mastery for Afflic and Destro, there's a delay with target switching and travel time, you have to worry a little extra about terrain and certain effects. Going no-pet cuts all of those out.

    So if the two are equal on a Patchwerk test, then no-pet comes out ahead in every actual play situation. Which is exactly what we've had, and why it's been so heavily favored this expansion. GC is now adopting the argument that some players have been making for a while, that the efficiency of using GoSac is a very real DPS increase that has to be accounted for. So he's saying straight out that GoSup will be slightly ahead of GoSac on a Patchwerk sim, with the goal that the two match up closely in actual play conditions.

  17. #2277
    This may be old news, didn't scan through all the pages. I've seen some 5.2 ptr sim numbers and affliction/ gosac was still top dps lock spec/ talent combo. Destro and demon where basically identical and right below affliction numbers. All 3 very close to being balanced so play which ever spec you enjoy without worrying about being behind on dps/damage

  18. #2278
    Quote Originally Posted by Cedrin View Post
    This may be old news, didn't scan through all the pages. I've seen some 5.2 ptr sim numbers and affliction/ gosac was still top dps lock spec/ talent combo. Destro and demon where basically identical and right below affliction numbers. All 3 very close to being balanced so play which ever spec you enjoy without worrying about being behind on dps/damage
    It would be nice if you linked sim numbers and source.

  19. #2279
    Upon a 2nd look demon may be 1-2k higher bis off the numbers. http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topi...n/page__st__20

  20. #2280
    I think some of the apprehension isn't over where Sacrifice is right now, but where it will be if Blizzard's internal data suggests that Sacrifice is still too attractive. Maybe the patch goes live with another nerf attached to it.

    I'd rather it not be just for fights where pets are a liability, because we're in the hole either way if that's the case. Either you choose a pet that doesn't function well (through survivability, scaling from encounter buffs, etc.) and have your damage penalized, or you take Sacrifice and have your damage penalized. Either way you have to take a bite out of the shit sandwich.
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2013-03-03 at 05:24 AM.

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