Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Thaladhrun]

How old? CB hasn't been "good" since Wrath, even then I'm talking very relatively. Last expansion it was a joke.

I'm referring to its animation. I dislike the massive oversized missile it's become. With HOG I mean the mechanics of the old spell.

This just isnt true at all anymore, Demo does no extra damage at close range. In fact with all its mobility and gap openers it has no reason or excuse to be tanking anything.

Demo has one spell that closes gaps and another that only comes into effect at close range, i.e. Immolation Aura. I am not saying there is a reason to remain at close range but addressing the argument that you can't have the old Shadowflame because we're not melee. The old one did confer a rather low damage increase if used rotationally but I don't think people who are nostalgic about it are asking for it to be part of any rotation.

[Jessicka]

Demo has one spell that closes gaps and another that only comes into effect at close range, i.e. Immolation Aura. I am not saying there is a reason to remain at close range but addressing the argument that you can't have the old Shadowflame because we're not melee. The old one did confer a rather low damage increase if used rotationally but I don't think people who are nostalgic about it are asking for it to be part of any rotation.

Leap can be used as an opener as much as a closer, and you wouldn't use Hellfire/Immolation Aura in PvP to deal damage. With that and so many instants, Axe Toss, Carrion Swarm, two seperate Teleport cooldowns and Gateway I just can't see a reasonable argument to describe Demo as 'cloth tanks' with so much mobility and by extention so little reason to be getting hit by melee. I can see a case for Destruction, and to a lesser extent Affliction being described as such; and maybe even needing some help in that regard, but not Demo.

[shinewaylee]

Problem with shadowflame was that it required melee range and was part of warlock dps rotation, blizzard even nerfed other spells to compensate for the fact that we do dmg with shadowflame in melee range. Personally i dont want to see this spell again, warlocks are ranged not melees.

Neednot worry,I have said it has little damage and cost 10% health.High cost and little get is not rewarding for them to do so.

[Miothan]

I did 10 million less damage this week on H Will from chaos wave. Is there anything to compensate this nerf for PVE?
Just curious - why didn't you use Hand of Gul'dan in those instances? (Source)

How can they give an answer like this? even tho im still not playing i do lurk around the forum and this really looks like a "we dont give a shit" answer to the question.

[Apathy -]

How can they give an answer like this? even tho im still not playing i do lurk around the forum and this really looks like a "we dont give a shit" answer to the question.

Well he is right you really don't use chaos waves via pvE lol if I remember correctly.

[shinewaylee]

Well he is right you really don't use chaos waves via pvE lol if I remember correctly.

If so,why cv exists?In pve and pvp,it is a shit all.Just for fun?

[Phoenexis]

If so,why cv exists?In pve and pvp,it is a shit all.Just for fun?

To quickly kill the peasants in the Dominance Offensive daily quest. Duh.
What more could you want?

[Apathy -]

If so,why cv exists?In pve and pvp,it is a shit all.Just for fun?

CV existed for burst AoE and in general truly in PVP before they nudered it other then that Hand of guldan will always be the pvE thing.

[Daggot Ur]

@ Shinewaylee and Miothan.

The thing is that HoG yields higher income during this fight (you cant stack enough adds to prove dps gain over fury lost) and almost all other fights (accept for MelJarak maybe). That is why you are supposed to use HoG>CW. And if you like using CW>HoG get ready for lower dps.

[Netherspark]

Chaos Wave is designed to be an AOE spell, not single target. That's like Affliction spamming Seed of Corrruption on the boss then complaining that they're not doing much damage..

[Jessicka]

Chaos Wave is designed to be an AOE spell, not single target. That's like Affliction spamming Seed of Corrruption on the boss then complaining that they're not doing much damage..

HoG is also an AoE spell

Chaos Wave is/was for burst in both PvE and PvP.

Also worth pointing out that the Fury cost of CW was also reduced, so while that Tweeter did less damage with CW, they'll have got more damage out of Touch of Chaos.

[Thaladhrun]

Leap can be used as an opener as much as a closer, and you wouldn't use Hellfire/Immolation Aura in PvP to deal damage. With that and so many instants, Axe Toss, Carrion Swarm, two seperate Teleport cooldowns and Gateway I just can't see a reasonable argument to describe Demo as 'cloth tanks' with so much mobility and by extention so little reason to be getting hit by melee. I can see a case for Destruction, and to a lesser extent Affliction being described as such; and maybe even needing some help in that regard, but not Demo.

Well wait a minute. The spec can tank damage if it wants to, probably better than either of the other specs can. My objection was to he notion that locks shouldn't get into melee, which isn't really relevant for a spell like Shadowflame, since it's more of a gap opener (by virtue of being a slow applied at close range) than a melee attack. Maybe by design they don't need to, but it's not like demo will explode if melee touch it, especially in Meta. That it doesn't need to is a separate matter. Both Metamorphosis and Dark Apotheosis significantly push up its passive survivability. I'll agree that destro needs some help.

If he meant that the spell was bad design because it forced us to go into melee range for optimal DPS in PVE, I agree, but Immolation Aura also did and does that.

[lichanator]

HoG is also an AoE spell

Chaos Wave is/was for burst in both PvE and PvP.

Also worth pointing out that the Fury cost of CW was also reduced, so while that Tweeter did less damage with CW, they'll have got more damage out of Touch of Chaos.

That was my tweet, and I did that much less damage because our strat on H Will was killing 2 waves at a time, 8 adds, 12 last two sets and we needed the burst from Chaos wave, as I said the difference was noticeable and I didn't get more touch of chaos, cause I had to use knockback/shadow fury and aoe to burn adds down all at once so the sparks could be soaked.

The bigger question is now is it more damage to cast two HOG's and then transform into meta, then the two Chaos wave's back to back?

8 x 2 chaos waves vs 8 x 2 Hog's shadowflames?

[aikoyamamato]

The bigger question is now is it more damage to cast two HOG's and then transform into meta, then the two Chaos wave's back to back?

After the initial first two hoG on the pull (which can go either way I suppose, I personally use them simultaneously to generate fury for quick burst), shouldn't HoG be on cooldown anyways? If you are saving them specifically with your strat for the waves of adds, then 1x HoG, Meta, then 1 CW would theoretically be more aoe DPS. I'll need to check it out when I get home (working the day after Christmas sucks, there's no work to do!).

[Rakaji]

After the initial first two hoG on the pull (which can go either way I suppose, I personally use them simultaneously to generate fury for quick burst), shouldn't HoG be on cooldown anyways? If you are saving them specifically with your strat for the waves of adds, then 1x HoG, Meta, then 1 CW would theoretically be more aoe DPS. I'll need to check it out when I get home (working the day after Christmas sucks, there's no work to do!).

The best way to use HoG is to cast the first charge, continue your normal DPS routine, and then cast the second charge so that it'll refresh Shadowflame's duration just as it's falling off. I assume you know that Shadowflame stacks up to 2, so getting almost the full duration out of 1 stack and then the full duration of 2 stacks gets you a lot more fury back than just doublecasting HoG.

And to answer your and lichanator's questions, HoG is worth a lot more DPCT than CW ever has been - especially after the nerf. The only excuse for using CW is if you can use it to snipe killing blows in AoE situations so that Soul Consumption gives you back more fury

[aikoyamamato]

The best way to use HoG is to cast the first charge, continue your normal DPS routine, and then cast the second charge so that it'll refresh Shadowflame's duration just as it's falling off. I assume you know that Shadowflame stacks up to 2, so getting almost the full duration out of 1 stack and then the full duration of 2 stacks gets you a lot more fury back than just doublecasting HoG.

Yeah, I was just referring to the pull. On pull I do the following: Pre-pot, Pre-cast Soul Fire (CoE is not handled by me luckily), Corruption, HoG, DS+trinks, Imps, Grim of Serv, HoG (before the first dot is up), Meta, ToC spam, etc etc blah blah. It tends to be more burst on the pull, otherwise yeah. HoG only if the previous DoT has lived its life. Sorry didn't mean to take the discussion to proper HoG usage. I don't ever use CW unless I somehow mess up my rotation and I'll get 2 stacks of HoG (CW) while I'm in Meta. Never happens.

In lichanator's case, when it comes to his guild's strat for Will I still think a CW might be worth it if he is going to save up 2 charges anyway. I'll check when I get home but I recall the initial damage of HoG and CW to be in CW's favor, with HoG benefiting from the DoT. If he has two stacks, rather than using HoG twice I'd HoG, Meta, CW for AoE. I could very easily be wrong, and it also depends on how long the adds live.

[lichanator]

In lichanator's case, when it comes to his guild's strat for Will I still think a CW might be worth it if he is going to save up 2 charges anyway. I'll check when I get home but I recall the initial damage of HoG and CW to be in CW's favor, with HoG benefiting from the DoT. If he has two stacks, rather than using HoG twice I'd HoG, Meta, CW for AoE. I could very easily be wrong, and it also depends on how long the adds live.

Yeah this is what I was getting at, does the shadowflame damage outweigh the Chaos wave inpact on all 8 targets twice?

[Rakaji]

Yeah this is what I was getting at, does the shadowflame damage outweigh the Chaos wave inpact on all 8 targets twice?

By a very large margin, yes

[Xelnath]

GoSac: Succubus - finally they made this not worthless. Whiplash was the obvious choice for this NOT seduction! Why would you want to CC yourself just so you can CC another when you can just fear them with the same DR.

Because *originally* in 5.2, GoSac: Succubus was going to grant hunter camoflague (Lesser invis) for a short duration. However, I never got the tech for that working and it was probably a nightmare for PvP anyways.

Either way, giving Whiplash would have meant it would have been harder to replace later on...

[Aruotnof]

Xelnath,

Are you back? XD