1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumaw View Post
    Still, nerfing Grim of Sac for Destruction makes no sense, unless they give something in return, wich is very unlikely.
    Yeah, Sac is possibly a little too high for Destro; the nerf is probably a bit much. I think they missed the reason it's a no brainer is because of Havoc, not single target output.

  2. #282
    Herald of the Titans Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Ehm, change target or wait 5 secs and there is no DR?
    Indeed, but that means you cannot chain-cast it on the same target over and over like some whiners suggest. That, and the fact that it a) breaks on little damage b) can be dispelled and c) can be countered in a billion ways means whining about it is exaggerated.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumaw View Post
    Still, nerfing Grim of Sac for Destruction makes no sense, unless they give something in return, wich is very unlikely.
    agree if we will look only at DPS side.

    false if we will look at the situation that 99,99% destro locks (same as affli ones) tooks only Sac totally ignoring rest.

    So in that case Sac nerf for destro was needed. On the other hand some more love overal for destro i recomended.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Yeah, Sac is possibly a little too high for Destro; the nerf is probably a bit much. I think they missed the reason it's a no brainer is because of Havoc, not single target output.
    I'd wager that's why they nerfed it. Sac and Supremacy were near identical in terms of single target dps, sac was taken only for cleaving with Havoc. Which is arguably too strong when used properly...two 500k chaos bolts?. I don't mind this nerf too much, but I was hoping for a slight single target boost.

    Edit: All this really does is make the talent more of a choice again. Single target? Take Supremacy. Cleave? Take Sac.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    agree if we will look only at DPS side.

    false if we will look at the situation that 99,99% destro locks (same as affli ones) tooks only Sac totally ignoring rest.

    So in that case Sac nerf for destro was needed. On the other hand some more love overal for destro i recomended.
    TBH I only use GoSac for raiding and usually dungeons, I'm Supremacy outside it for questing/scenarios/dungeons if I'm too lazy to switch talents, so from my point of view they serve their niches quite well, just like Blizz intended. I think I'm not alone in this approach, so my guess it is very likely a pure damage output issue that Blizz wants to adress.
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  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    TBH I only use GoSac for raiding and usually dungeons, I'm Supremacy outside it for questing/scenarios/dungeons if I'm too lazy to switch talents, so from my point of view they serve their niches quite well, just like Blizz intended. I think I'm not alone in this approach, so my guess it is very likely a pure damage output issue that Blizz wants to adress.
    That's the intended use of the talents, hence me being against the pathetic attempt at balancing.
    They will never get 33% picking #1, 33% picking #2 and 33% picking #3. It's not going to happen and attempting to force it is just sad. And bad. And it makes me mad.
    And the 123987192387 numbers is not the reason for the sac nerf, come on ....

    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    agree if we will look only at DPS side.

    false if we will look at the situation that 99,99% destro locks (same as affli ones) tooks only Sac totally ignoring rest.

    So in that case Sac nerf for destro was needed. On the other hand some more love overal for destro i recomended.
    I'm not personally "ignoring" the others. I just genuinly prefer to not have a pet, without being punished severely for making that decision. You're ignoring the fact that people who minmax ARE using the other talents for certain fights.

    The intended purpose of the talents is to be situational and chosen on that basis. Not a "pick whatever you prefer, everything is equal anyway". That is not my opinion, but what I gathered from their MOP press release back at BlizzCon. Which could in turn be considered my opinion, since I didn't do a direct quote but tbh I didn't take the time to go and dig it up. I'm simply not that fussed.
    Last edited by Sweetz; 2012-12-29 at 05:31 PM.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Indeed, but that means you cannot chain-cast it on the same target over and over like some whiners suggest. That, and the fact that it a) breaks on little damage b) can be dispelled and c) can be countered in a billion ways means whining about it is exaggerated.
    It's a 8s long insta CC on a 30 yard range and 10s cooldown. If it doesn't get removed the other way to balance it would give similar CC's to all classes. Is this a step you would be more supportive of? I know I wouldn't.

  8. #288
    TBH I only use GoSac for raiding and usually dungeons, I'm Supremacy outside it for questing/scenarios/dungeons if I'm too lazy to switch talents, so from my point of view they serve their niches quite well, just like Blizz intended.
    Really your Supremacy only if you are to lazy to switch talents ? If yes - i doubt that its just like Blizz intended. If no - well - your right then. But tbh questing/scenarios/dungeones are so easy, specially with raid gear, that it really doesnt matter what tallent you would choose - so i dont thinks its good argument. But anyway - still as i wroted at the begining, if its only cos your lazy - its definiettly bad thing.

    I'm not personally "ignoring" the others. I just genuinly prefer to not have a pet, without being punished severely for making that decision. You're ignoring the fact that people who minmax ARE using the other talents for certain fights.
    Since when you are punished for decided to not having pet ? Still Sac for affli is best DPS tallent, for destro it will be about equall as with demons.

    Problem is you are IGNORING the others. YOU dont like to play with pets so you want not only have possibility to play without them but also you want something extra cos of that. When its really equall and you can really choose - to play with pets or not without beeing punished (YES atm ppl who actually LIKE playing with pets are punished !!! You dont give a shit about that - why you didnt mention about that ? So - YOU ARE IGNORING OTHERS and just want to have changes that only you like). You've lost your adv and you are made cos of that.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    Since when you are punished for decided to not having pet ? Still Sac for affli is best DPS tallent, for destro it will be about equall as with demons.
    Some fights this tier I'd say running with a pet has been better than GoSac. If this nerf goes through we'll have to use one on many more fights next tier. KJC saves our MG uptime but there will always be fights where we'll drop it for SoC spam for example.

  10. #290
    The nerf to Destro's Sacrifice makes absolutely no sense:

    Sacrifice was already behind Supremacy-Observer in single target situations. The only reason Sacrifice was routinely taken was because Havoc damage was increased by Sacrifice.

    Nerfing Sacrifice will only put it farther behind in single-target situations, while it'll be somewhat similar (potentially) with Havoc accounted for. In addition, the stat priority for Destruction flips completely depending on talent choice, so it's not like you can just say you'll be Supremacy for single target fights and then swap instantly to Sac for cleave fights.


    What they need to do is un-nerf sacrifice's bonus damage (as it was single-target balanced already) and remove the damage bonus' effect for havoc'd spells. If anything they probably need to buff the bonus damage a tad as when you AoE for any significant period of time the other talents are better as the pets still do full damage on one target.


    New Tooltip for GoSac for Destro:

    Damage dealt by Incinerate, Conflagrate, Shadowburn and Fel Flame increased by 25%.
    Chaos Bolt deals 25% additional damage over 3 sec.
    Spells modified by Fire and Brimstone and copied by Havoc are unaffected.
    Restores 2% of maximum health every 5 sec.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Some fights this tier I'd say running with a pet has been better than GoSac. If this nerf goes through we'll have to use one on many more fights next tier. KJC saves our MG uptime but there will always be fights where we'll drop it for SoC spam for example.
    No,as for mastey donnot add pet's damage.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by shinewaylee View Post
    No,as for mastey donnot add pet's damage.
    Mastery has nothing to do with GoSac.

  13. #293
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    Well, it makes some sense. Single target GoSup was with GoSac within deviation, so there was no real benefit to choosing Sup for anything. Almost all of the fights have something to cleave, and that just made Sac that much better. Overall, Sac was just winning. They still need to do something with Havoc. Throwing around 2 for 1 CB's through Havoc is going to continue to make Sac dominate cleaves, and instead of reforging, just going Aff for single target fights. It's not really promoting talent diversity, just making your decision whether or not to respec for certain fights that much easier. Not sure if there is a fix that keeps Havoc worthwhile and gives players any incentive to choose another Grim.
    After being Medieve the Uberpally for many years, finally shelved in favor of Belledanna, the Uberlock!!! (patent pending)

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  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Mastery has nothing to do with GoSac.
    At a mastery,perhaps Gosac = pet,but when your mastery increase,your pet's damage will not change,which is the big disadvantage from Gosac.

  15. #295
    Mechagnome Sweetz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    Really your Supremacy only if you are to lazy to switch talents ? If yes - i doubt that its just like Blizz intended. If no - well - your right then. But tbh questing/scenarios/dungeones are so easy, specially with raid gear, that it really doesnt matter what tallent you would choose - so i dont thinks its good argument. But anyway - still as i wroted at the begining, if its only cos your lazy - its definiettly bad thing.



    Since when you are punished for decided to not having pet ? Still Sac for affli is best DPS tallent, for destro it will be about equall as with demons.

    Problem is you are IGNORING the others. YOU dont like to play with pets so you want not only have possibility to play without them but also you want something extra cos of that. When its really equall and you can really choose - to play with pets or not without beeing punished (YES atm ppl who actually LIKE playing with pets are punished !!! You dont give a shit about that - why you didnt mention about that ? So - YOU ARE IGNORING OTHERS and just want to have changes that only you like). You've lost your adv and you are made cos of that.
    Since Vanilla. ... well.. since before Vanilla was known as Vanilla. Since Warlocks were invented and then all the way up until MOP. Not having a pet was never an option until 5.0, except for sacrificing Succubus in mid->late TBC.

    I'm not ignoring the others, but you certainly are ignoring me. I am beginning to wonder if you missunderstand me on purpose or if there's some kind of language barrier-thingie going on here.
    People who like to play with pets are not being punished by any means. People who like to play with pets can easily play demonology (or any spec on any aoe or multidot heavy encounter, of which there are plenty)
    And I am not made cos I lost my adv, and I haven't lost it yet. And this discussion was never about what I gained or lost, this was me argueing that attempting to balance 3 talents in 6 tiers for 3 specs for 11 classes in all 16 bossfights is utopia. Grimoire of Sacrifice vs Grimoire of Service is an epic example of attempting to balance something that is actually working as intended. Situationally, by intent.
    Talents are supposed to be swapped on a fight-to-fight basis, like they are now. Although if service was slightly better, it could be used on on-demand-single-target-burst-heavy fights, think HC Amber Shaper P3 or HC Lei Shi Get Away.

    You are voicing your own opinion just like I am, do I really have to remind you of that? No need to point me out as a douchebag just because I enjoy playing a petless game for once.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Spells modified by Fire and Brimstone and copied by Havoc are unaffected.
    Yup, that's all it needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetz View Post
    Since Vanilla. ... well.. since before Vanilla was known as Vanilla. Since Warlocks were invented and then all the way up until MOP. Not having a pet was never an option until 5.0, except for sacrificing Succubus in mid->late TBC.

    I'm not ignoring the others, but you certainly are ignoring me. I am beginning to wonder if you missunderstand me on purpose or if there's some kind of language barrier-thingie going on here.
    People who like to play with pets are not being punished by any means. People who like to play with pets can easily play demonology (or any spec on any aoe or multidot heavy encounter, of which there are plenty)
    And I am not made cos I lost my adv, and I haven't lost it yet. And this discussion was never about what I gained or lost, this was me argueing that attempting to balance 3 talents in 6 tiers for 3 specs for 11 classes in all 16 bossfights is utopia. Grimoire of Sacrifice vs Grimoire of Service is an epic example of attempting to balance something that is actually working as intended. Situationally, by intent.
    Talents are supposed to be swapped on a fight-to-fight basis, like they are now. Although if service was slightly better, it could be used on on-demand-single-target-burst-heavy fights, think HC Amber Shaper P3 or HC Lei Shi Get Away.

    You are voicing your own opinion just like I am, do I really have to remind you of that? No need to point me out as a douchebag just because I enjoy playing a petless game for once.
    Why did you pick a pet class, if you don't like the pet? Genuinely interested.

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post

    New Tooltip for GoSac for Destro:

    Damage dealt by Incinerate, Conflagrate, Shadowburn and Fel Flame increased by 25%.
    Chaos Bolt deals 25% additional damage over 3 sec.
    Spells modified by Fire and Brimstone and copied by Havoc are unaffected.
    Restores 2% of maximum health every 5 sec.
    Not sure that does anything except tank Destro's cleave power, which on 2 targets, isn't anything spectacular. It's not as if Destro can set its felguard between 2 targets and cleave as well. I suppose we could buff single target to compensate a bit, but it'd take quite the buff to bring Destro back up to compete with Aff and Demo in a 2 target fight. The side effect of that would make Destro the clear winner single target. It's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't things.
    After being Medieve the Uberpally for many years, finally shelved in favor of Belledanna, the Uberlock!!! (patent pending)

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  18. #298
    Mechagnome Sweetz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Yup, that's all it needs.


    Why did you pick a pet class, if you don't like the pet? Genuinely interested.
    Good question, looking back (to vanilla) I definately should've been a mage. Although nowadays, that would've been a pet class. That leaves only hunter as a purebred ranged dps.
    I do thoroughly enjoy my warlock and having a pet wouldn't ruin it for me, but it would give me a serious quality of life problem that I had happily forgotten about, especially since I have very limited methods of keeping such a pet alive.
    Here's why I'm still a warlock:
    Demonic Circle: Teleport
    Dots
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    Interesting specs and class design
    Purebred dps, thereby topping the meters by design
    Ranged
    Legacy

    Why do you like having a pet?
    Last edited by Sweetz; 2012-12-29 at 07:17 PM.

  19. #299
    Is the GoSac nerf meant to increase popularity of the other talents in that tier or just to deal with warlock scaling? Or both?

    I don't expect Destro to get compensating buffs but it would be nice. Maybe Immolate buff? It seems so lackluster at the moment.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by shinewaylee View Post
    At a mastery,perhaps Gosac = pet,but when your mastery increase,your pet's damage will not change,which is the big disadvantage from Gosac.
    Not saying you're wrong but I'd like to see some math behind that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    Is the GoSac nerf meant to increase popularity of the other talents in that tier or just to deal with warlock scaling? Or both?
    I haven't seen any official comments on it but my guess is to just try balance the talents. Sadly they seem to put too much focus on this rather than the overall balance in the game.

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