1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetz View Post
    Good question, looking back (to vanilla) I definately should've been a mage. Although nowadays, that would've been a pet class. That leaves only hunter as a purebred ranged dps.
    Arcane and Fire are great specs, even after the latter's nerf so there's no reason to use a pet there and Hunters are as much a pet class as we are. Are you thinking the other way around? What about Shadow Priests or Boomkins now there's no hybrid tax?
    I do thoroughly enjoy my warlock and having a pet wouldn't ruin it for me, but it would give me a serious quality of life problem that I had happily forgotten about, especially since I have very limited methods of keeping such a pet alive.
    Here's why I'm still a warlock:
    Demonic Circle: Teleport
    Dots
    Good community
    Interesting specs and class design
    Purebred dps, thereby topping the meters by design
    Ranged
    Legacy

    Why do you like having a pet?
    Just something I've become accustomed too, extra damage and utility off the GCD that I can also use while CCed, ability to focus damage where it's important, beyond just splitting with multidotting. Extra damage during phase changes/downtime/outranging... There are an awful lot of things I miss when I'm playing SPriest, Mage, or even Aff with Sacrifice when I have no pet around.

    Survivability isn't a problem, certainly not since avoidance came in in Wrath; there are some mechanics on certain encounters that can cause issues, but they're few and far between and more often than not are actually bugs that end up getting fixed anyway.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    What they need to do is un-nerf sacrifice's bonus damage (as it was single-target balanced already) and remove the damage bonus' effect for havoc'd spells. If anything they probably need to buff the bonus damage a tad as when you AoE for any significant period of time the other talents are better as the pets still do full damage on one target.
    Assuming it's possible to do so in a reasonable amount of time.

    F&B avoids GoSac's bonus because all the affected spells are actually separate abilities that are only available while F&B is active, since they use separate spell IDs they can pretty easily be omitted from GoSac.

    On the other hand, Havoc cheats. The way I remember Xelnath describing it, Havoc doesn't technically copy the spells it copies. Instead, it modifies the affected spells to behave as a chain spell with a fixed secondary target. Admittedly, I don't know much about WoW's programming, but I'm not sure if it's currently possible for a specific damage bonus to only apply to the initial target of a chain spell and not the secondary target. It might take a lot of work to get that potential fix to work properly, and they might not have enough time before 5.2 hits to get it done.

    Also, it's entirely possible that they want to keep GoSac's interaction with Havoc in the game, but they also don't want Havoc to be the end-all-be-all talent for both single- and multi-target fights. By allowing GoSac to still be powerful with Havoc, but not as effective without it, there is now a situational choice between the Grimoire talents. Since one of the main goals of Blizzard's revamped talent system was to create more situational choices, this might be their intended goal with the nerf.

  3. #303
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    I'm all for choices and the new talent system is nice, but needing to completely change your optimization because you changed a talent is bad design.
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  4. #304
    I didn't claim it was a great design, just that it was a possible direction that Blizzard is designing from. The synergy between Destro and Aff's mastery bonuses and GoSac is a whole 'nother problem to deal with. Unfortunately there isn't really an easy way to solve that issue without adding on a pet damage component to both spec's masteries to make the stat weights between different grimoires closer to neutral, which would mean a whole lot of damage balance headaches to deal with.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    I'm all for choices and the new talent system is nice, but needing to completely change your optimization because you changed a talent is bad design.
    The "need" is illusionary. Optimization and min/maxxing isn't required to kill a boss.

    I happily bounce back and forth between Supremacy and Sacrifice without a loss of DPS.

  6. #306
    GoSac seems mispaced in talent trees, lvl 75 should be all about pets. Most people would choose it over other two talents if they all provided equal dps. I think GoSac should be either baseline, or be buffed (yes, buffed) and replace AV.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallensaint View Post
    Assuming it's possible to do so in a reasonable amount of time.

    F&B avoids GoSac's bonus because all the affected spells are actually separate abilities that are only available while F&B is active, since they use separate spell IDs they can pretty easily be omitted from GoSac.

    On the other hand, Havoc cheats. The way I remember Xelnath describing it, Havoc doesn't technically copy the spells it copies. Instead, it modifies the affected spells to behave as a chain spell with a fixed secondary target. Admittedly, I don't know much about WoW's programming, but I'm not sure if it's currently possible for a specific damage bonus to only apply to the initial target of a chain spell and not the secondary target. It might take a lot of work to get that potential fix to work properly, and they might not have enough time before 5.2 hits to get it done.

    Also, it's entirely possible that they want to keep GoSac's interaction with Havoc in the game, but they also don't want Havoc to be the end-all-be-all talent for both single- and multi-target fights. By allowing GoSac to still be powerful with Havoc, but not as effective without it, there is now a situational choice between the Grimoire talents. Since one of the main goals of Blizzard's revamped talent system was to create more situational choices, this might be their intended goal with the nerf.
    If it functions as a chaining spell it's even easier as it's in-game in the form of Chain Lightning! Have the second bounce have reduced damage equal to the buff to damage sac gives and it's back to normal damage.

    If they decide to nerf Destruction-Sacrifice then they should figure out some rebalancing of stats so that the switch doesn't require a full-reforge/regear.

    I'm fine with switching specs requiring that drastic a gear change, but changing one talent? I don't think so.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 08:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ridcully View Post
    GoSac seems mispaced in talent trees, lvl 75 should be all about pets. Most people would choose it over other two talents if they all provided equal dps. I think GoSac should be either baseline, or be buffed (yes, buffed) and replace AV.
    It is about pets, just in that it removes them entirely and lets the player do more to compensate.

    I can probably see an argument for moving it in to replace AV (which is largely useless compared to the other two options now), if it temporarily banished your active demon to the nether or something and you got a temporary increased damage buff (or something temporary) while it was in the nether. I have no clue what talent could possibly replace it though. We already have a second summon and buffed normal pets in Service and Supremacy. What else is there to provide a damage increase that's pet related that's not in those 2 categories and isn't about losing the pet all together? I can't really see anything that fits.

  8. #308
    So with 5.2.. will it be a dps gain to go grim of supremacy for affli now?:0 An since saccing succubus got changed would it be a dps gain to use whiplash?

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Not saying you're wrong but I'd like to see some math behind that.
    Pets scale off your SP/Haste/Crit, unless you are demo as their mastery spesific increases pet dmg. GoSac lets Destro/aff benefit from all their stats on all their dmg wich is why its pulling ahead and will continue to do so as gear increases. Else you will make mastery obsolete for destro/aff.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by HemmerN View Post
    Pets scale off your SP/Haste/Crit, unless you are demo as their mastery spesific increases pet dmg. GoSac lets Destro/aff benefit from all their stats on all their dmg wich is why its pulling ahead and will continue to do so as gear increases. Else you will make mastery obsolete for destro/aff.
    Sure, I get this. Just curious when and how. Also why we would have to put so much focus on mastery. I mean if we would have a fight with mostly SB:SoC spam we'd want to stack haste anyway.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    What they need to do is un-nerf sacrifice's bonus damage (as it was single-target balanced already) and remove the damage bonus' effect for havoc'd spells. If anything they probably need to buff the bonus damage a tad as when you AoE for any significant period of time the other talents are better as the pets still do full damage on one target.


    New Tooltip for GoSac for Destro:

    Damage dealt by Incinerate, Conflagrate, Shadowburn and Fel Flame increased by 25%.
    Chaos Bolt deals 25% additional damage over 3 sec.
    Spells modified by Fire and Brimstone and copied by Havoc are unaffected.
    Restores 2% of maximum health every 5 sec.
    If they remove Havoc and FnB synergy with GoSac, why ever use it? The only reason GoSac destruction even exists is this synergy. If they remove this they should compensate somehow :S

  12. #312
    Warchief Thaladhrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    It's a 8s long insta CC on a 30 yard range and 10s cooldown. If it doesn't get removed the other way to balance it would give similar CC's to all classes. Is this a step you would be more supportive of? I know I wouldn't.
    The alternative would be to make it consume each spec's resource.

  13. #313
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    I can probably see an argument for moving it in to replace AV (which is largely useless compared to the other two options now), if it temporarily banished your active demon to the nether or something and you got a temporary increased damage buff (or something temporary) while it was in the nether. I have no clue what talent could possibly replace it though. We already have a second summon and buffed normal pets in Service and Supremacy. What else is there to provide a damage increase that's pet related that's not in those 2 categories and isn't about losing the pet all together? I can't really see anything that fits.
    How about this, I like the GoSac baseline (you can choose between 4-5 pets, or no pet) idea. Then, replace GoSac with a "bestial wrath" type ability - temporary buff to your damage and your pet's damage.

    For Sacrificed versions, GoSup increases your bonus from GoSac, baseline. GoServ still summons (one) pet for you temporarily (same function), and the "GoBerserking" just increases your damage; this actually would give some baseline burst as well.


    P.S. If the patchwerk damage were equal, are you so sure people wouldn't choose the pet? It's free damage that doesn't suffer from movement penalty and (for the most part) doesn't have to avoid shit.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    How about this, I like the GoSac baseline (you can choose between 4-5 pets, or no pet) idea. Then, replace GoSac with a "bestial wrath" type ability - temporary buff to your damage and your pet's damage.

    For Sacrificed versions, GoSup increases your bonus from GoSac, baseline. GoServ still summons (one) pet for you temporarily (same function), and the "GoBerserking" just increases your damage; this actually would give some baseline burst as well.


    P.S. If the patchwerk damage were equal, are you so sure people wouldn't choose the pet? It's free damage that doesn't suffer from movement penalty and (for the most part) doesn't have to avoid shit.
    Then warlock PvP would just be even more reliant on "swifty macro" burst cooldowns. Warlock damage is already pathetic outside of cooldowns, and obscene with cooldowns up. Exasperating this is a really bad idea.

  15. #315
    So, the new spell 'Cataclysm' is going to be really removed and not reworked or replaced for another thing?

    If Blizz made it, they agree that Destro locks need something else to help on PVP, since our only melee repelent was removed (RoF stun). I readed that they didnt make it live cause they figured that would be too simple to avoid it by just steping out Cataclysm area till the cast is done, then going back to finish raping the lock.

    What i think that could be done and would work is just make Cataclysm similar to how Ring of Frost works..


    Cataclysm

    X% base mana 30 yd range
    Instant cast 45 sec cooldown

    Summons a searing area on the choosen location. After 3 sec, all enemies within 8 yards are immolated, knocked away and stunned for 3 sec. Enemies entering the area for the first time will be immolated and knocked away. Lasts 10 sec.




    Obviously the cast time, CD and duration could be adjusted, but the point of my idea is that the spell could work this way and acctualy would be very usefull.

    Thoughts?



    " So much lost time... that you'll never get back!"....

  16. #316
    I still use my pet as affliction, granted only on two fights, but afflcition for me isn't always grim of sac

    on both willoE and garalon i will switch to grim of supremacy and sick my passive imp on the boss while i go to town

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Warrada View Post
    So, the new spell 'Cataclysm' is going to be really removed and not reworked or replaced for another thing?

    If Blizz made it, they agree that Destro locks need something else to help on PVP, since our only melee repelent was removed (RoF stun). I readed that they didnt make it live cause they figured that would be too simple to avoid it by just steping out Cataclysm area till the cast is done, then going back to finish raping the lock.

    What i think that could be done and would work is just make Cataclysm similar to how Ring of Frost works..


    Cataclysm

    X% base mana 30 yd range
    Instant cast 45 sec cooldown

    Summons a searing area on the choosen location. After 3 sec, all enemies within 8 yards are immolated, knocked away and stunned for 3 sec. Enemies entering the area for the first time will be immolated and knocked away. Lasts 10 sec.




    Obviously the cast time, CD and duration could be adjusted, but the point of my idea is that the spell could work this way and acctualy would be very usefull.

    Thoughts?
    The purpose and effect of Cataclysm as a melee deterrent/get off my face ability is being reworked into the new Blood Fear.

  18. #318
    Warchief Thaladhrun's Avatar
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    If it were a Horror effect, I'd be convinced. As a mere Fear effect it's pretty easy to counter, since most classes have some means of removing Fear.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The purpose and effect of Cataclysm as a melee deterrent/get off my face ability is being reworked into the new Blood Fear.
    I hope you're joking and/or don't PvP.

    The new "Unreliable, single target, 100k life to cast, chance to fear a pet version of Howl of Terror" blood fear is something that people would only take by accident.
    Last edited by Tya; 2012-12-31 at 02:05 PM.

  20. #320
    Mechagnome Sweetz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    I hope you're joking and/or don't PvP.

    The new "Unreliable, single target, 100k life to cast, chance to fear a pet version of Howl of Terror" blood fear is something that people would only take by accident.
    Well said...

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