1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrinvisable2 View Post
    dont cry ptr isnt up yet these changes are only start to show ppl what they want to change and these isnt final changes
    Problem is at the moment, no one is using the ptr to give meaningful data, you only have to look at the clusterfuck that happened with Mage combustion to see that, and look what happened to fire spec as a result!! :-(

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    Problem is at the moment, no one is using the ptr to give meaningful data, you only have to look at the clusterfuck that happened with Mage combustion to see that, and look what happened to fire spec as a result!! :-(

    If we should really watch at fire spec after nerf and expect same - we should be more than happy.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    If we should really watch at fire spec after nerf and expect same - we should be more than happy.
    I'm assuming that by this you mean fire is fine, which it is, in bis/great gear. At low gear lvls it's horrible to play and in pvp it's dead. The point I was making was I just don't want the devs to make sweeping changes that could potentially break the class and let these changes roll with the next patch as they have had no feedback via the ptr due to lack of people testing and providing meaningful data.

    So we need to try and combat this, so soon as the ptr is up we need to test test test to make sure it doesn't happen, I know now I'm back ill find time to do so, whether that data is used with Xel now gone remains to be seen, which is more than a little worriesome!!

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    I'm assuming that by this you mean fire is fine, which it is, in bis/great gear. At low gear lvls it's (...) The point I was making was I just don't want the devs to make sweeping changes that could potentially break the class and let these changes roll with the next patch as they have had no feedback via the ptr due to lack of people testing and providing meaningful data.
    Situation when you dont have only 1 spec choosen from 90% of all mage raiders you are calling "break the class" ?

    Situation when 1 spec is not totally OP you are calling "break the class" ?




    Please tell me whats the definition of "break the class" for you ?


    Ill write this again - i would love to see that Blizzard would break warlocks same as they breake mages. Becouse warlocks need that atm.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    Situation when you dont have only 1 spec choosen from 90% of all mage raiders you are calling "break the class" ?

    Situation when 1 spec is not totally OP you are calling "break the class" ?




    Please tell me whats the definition of "break the class" for you ?


    Ill write this again - i would love to see that Blizzard would break warlocks same as they breake mages. Becouse warlocks need that atm.
    the problem with that is that when they try and break the lock class they actually end up buffing them instead. and just to be clear, mages have not now nor have they ever been broken, they have always and always will be worth bringing to a raid. you cant say that about any other class. and to make it even more clear, fire got a nerf bcoz they desperately deserved it, you cant say that about any of the lock specs as none of them were as far ahead as fire.

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    Situation when you dont have only 1 spec choosen from 90% of all mage raiders you are calling "break the class" ?

    Situation when 1 spec is not totally OP you are calling "break the class" ?




    Please tell me whats the definition of "break the class" for you ?


    Ill write this again - i would love to see that Blizzard would break warlocks same as they breake mages. Becouse warlocks need that atm.
    You think that warlocks need nerfing??? Well they are mate if you read the patch notes.

    I think you've misunderstood what I'm trying to say so let me try again.

    The point I was making was that the fire nerfs came AFTER patch 5.1 meaning clearly they were ignoring the data from the ptr as the 5.1 patch was actually a buff to fire mages with the combustion change, requiring hotfix changes that were very heavy handed and subsequently needed minor buffing. These changes should have come on the ptr where they have free reign to buff and nerf to their hearts content to fine tune the numbers without affecting the live game. Ergo what worrys me is that changes made with the next list of lock nerfs/buffs will ship with 5.2 without decent testing and COULD be very damaging for the class. I've never said mages were broken, fire now just plays clunky and frustrating with bad gear and great with good gear, it's the manner of how these changes happened which was the problem and I don't want a repeat with locks!!!

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    the problem with that is that when they try and break the lock class they actually end up buffing them instead. and just to be clear, mages have not now nor have they ever been broken, they have always and always will be worth bringing to a raid. you cant say that about any other class. and to make it even more clear, fire got a nerf bcoz they desperately deserved it, you cant say that about any of the lock specs as none of them were as far ahead as fire.
    I don't think they try to "break" the class. Most of the time we get better, it isn't through direct buffs to Warlocks, but rather indirectly through nerfs to other classes.

    To say Mages have never been broken clearly didn't play the game in T11. And to be honest, I've not had a Mage with any regularity in raid for years, and only on Spine have I ever thought I wished I had one.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I don't think they try to "break" the class. Most of the time we get better, it isn't through direct buffs to Warlocks, but rather indirectly through nerfs to other classes.

    To say Mages have never been broken clearly didn't play the game in T11. And to be honest, I've not had a Mage with any regularity in raid for years, and only on Spine have I ever thought I wished I had one.
    Whut? I remember tearing it up in t11 on my arcane mage, simcraft data backs it up too. Tier 11 and 12 were dominated by arcane mages.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by FruitBat69 View Post
    Whut? I remember tearing it up in t11 on my arcane mage, simcraft data backs it up too. Tier 11 and 12 were dominated by arcane mages.
    As I recall, pre 4.0.6, Mages didn't have a single viable spec. Arcane only became good after the mana costs for everything were significantly reduced in that patch.

  10. #350
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    As I recall, pre 4.0.6, Mages didn't have a single viable spec. Arcane only became good after the mana costs for everything were significantly reduced in that patch.
    I'm pretty sure fire was one of the top specs in game pre-4.0.6... Might not remember it exactly well, but that's what I thought after shadow, survival, and boomkins.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I'm pretty sure fire was one of the top specs in game pre-4.0.6... Might not remember it exactly well, but that's what I thought after shadow, survival, and boomkins.
    Fire couldn't even afford to cast fireballs for very long periods of time but had to scorch weave a bunch because of general mana problems. Mages were really bad overall until the first set of changes after the expansion. Also tier 11 4 piece (10% haste on main spells) was instrumental in keeping them viable (and with proper gear could finally perform well) until they got buffed proper in firelands patch to go on without the bonus.

    Anyway lets not derail further

  12. #352
    FWIW - intial testing on PTR shows that Soul Leech is awful, the GoSac nerf was way too much and they overbuffed a number of other classes.

  13. #353
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    FWIW - intial testing on PTR shows that Soul Leech is awful, the GoSac nerf was way too much and they overbuffed a number of other classes.
    Is PTR up? or did you have a source who is part of an initial test.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    FWIW - intial testing on PTR shows that Soul Leech is awful, the GoSac nerf was way too much and they overbuffed a number of other classes.
    Initial testing on PTR shows that I don't give a damn, and I just want to go get my green fire already

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Is PTR up? or did you have a source who is part of an initial test.
    PTR is indeed up and running! Poorly, but it's running!

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    FWIW - intial testing on PTR shows that Soul Leech is awful, the GoSac nerf was way too much and they overbuffed a number of other classes.
    How is it awful? Does the bubble just not stack at all?

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    How is it awful? Does the bubble just not stack at all?
    It does stack but how often will you find yourself in a situation where the bubble you get isn't even going to get the opportunity to stack? 100k Haunt = 20k shield that can stack with MG ticks (assuming MG ticking for 20k = 2k shield per tick, so 10k shield for a full cast). Will hardly mitigate anything in any raid. Pretty bad, imo.

  17. #357
    the GoSac nerf was way too much
    Yes....MOAR MOAR!!! MWHAHAHA

    But really i wouldnt worry to much right now surely more balance changes will come as testing goes on longer.
    Credit to PaulDok for sig!

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Heatuss View Post
    Yes....MOAR MOAR!!! MWHAHAHA

    But really i wouldnt worry to much right now surely more balance changes will come as testing goes on longer.
    I'm not really that worried about it right now - just disappointing lol.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    It does stack but how often will you find yourself in a situation where the bubble you get isn't even going to get the opportunity to stack? 100k Haunt = 20k shield that can stack with MG ticks (assuming MG ticking for 20k = 2k shield per tick, so 10k shield for a full cast). Will hardly mitigate anything in any raid. Pretty bad, imo.
    It's the exact same thing as taking the live version of Soul Leech, except that the healing coming off of that is mostly going towards overhealing more often than not. And many people still take it.

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    You think that warlocks need nerfing??? Well they are mate if you read the patch notes.

    I think you've misunderstood what I'm trying to say so let me try again.

    The point I was making was that the fire nerfs came AFTER patch 5.1 meaning clearly they were ignoring the data from the ptr as the 5.1 patch was actually a buff to fire mages with the combustion change, requiring hotfix changes that were very heavy handed and subsequently needed minor buffing. These changes should have come on the ptr where they have free reign to buff and nerf to their hearts content to fine tune the numbers without affecting the live game. Ergo what worrys me is that changes made with the next list of lock nerfs/buffs will ship with 5.2 without decent testing and COULD be very damaging for the class. I've never said mages were broken, fire now just plays clunky and frustrating with bad gear and great with good gear, it's the manner of how these changes happened which was the problem and I don't want a repeat with locks!!!
    Don't you know where you are!? How dare you make sense and be well thought out you bastard!!!!1111 jk's
    I couldn't agree more.
    But you know, ptr is like live, in that you have some players who never do anything wierd, who test things, and send in feedback, and then you have the 'fun' bunch, they have their place too...but of the first group, the ones who test? Yah welll, some of them are not so nice too, false info, damning reports, all to slide the scale against classes they do not play.
    For example, the steady steam of butthurt tanks over the lock-tanking fiasco.

    I hope Blizz GM's have an app for that called bullshit detector. Even still, they need a new version.
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